Mrgirl

Introduction

Steven Kenneth Bonnell II, AKA "Destiny," is a 34-year-old political streamer and was an early pioneer of professional livestreaming as it exists today.

He aims to stream 10 hours per day, 7 days a week. Thousands of viewers congregate for the duration of every stream.

His YouTube channel currently sits at 641,000 subscribers and averages over 10 million views per month. (He is not public about his income, but I'll disclose that I earned around $3,500 a month on YouTube with close to 40,000 subscribers and a fraction of Destiny's audience engagement level.)

As with other streamers, Destiny's additional revenue streams include merchandise, sponsorship deals, and donations–usually in the form of chat donations on his personal website (or "super chats" on YouTube). Audience members can pay to have Destiny react to their chat messages in real time. The more they pay, the more likely he is to react.

Because of the semi-accessibility of creators and the sheer volume of content, livestreaming is an addictive medium. Put plainly–Destiny's most dedicated fans watch him for several hours a day and give him hundreds of dollars per month each.

According to a 2019 demographic survey of 1,400 Destiny fans (conducted by a community member), 6% are 14-17 years old, and 75% are 25 or under.

93% are male, and 73% are white.

Link | Archive

Destiny’s audience trusts him to slice through irrational political discourse with ice-cold utilitarian logic. They identify with him strongly, adopting his positions, his mannerisms, and they have a reputation for harassing Destiny's ever-growing list of ex-friends and enemies.

This report aims to paint a broad picture of Destiny's public and private abuses of the substantial power afforded to him by YouTube, his colleagues, and his audience.

I will present examples of the following dynamics, which are disturbing individually and worse when combined:

1. Unequal sexual relationships: In the last decade Destiny has formed dozens of sexual relationships with small streamers who benefit enormously from their associations with him, especially when they appear on his stream. Frequently these are women who suffer from mental health issues and have expressed suicidal ideations or even been hospitalized for suicide attempts.

In 2020, Destiny himself explained why using your platform for sex with smaller creators is unethical, saying, "Let's say that I have a podcast, I got thirty thousand viewers, let's say that there's a girl that messages me, we talked a little bit, she really wants to be on. And I'm like 'Yeah, cool, like you really wanna come on my podcast, blah blah blah. I could probably start sexting her and she'll probably give in and send me nudes and shit because she doesn't want to lose that opportunity. She might not actually want to. She might not be into it really at all, but if I start propositioning her, if she says no to me she might worry like, 'Fuck, if I say no to this guy I'm not gonna make it on that,' yeah. [...] I think it is wrong, yeah. I don't think you should. [...] Nobody can ever know if you're actually that kind of person. That's why it's a very hazy area where you can't really consent in that situation because you don't really know if this guy's gonna fuck you over if you say yes or no to them, if they have that big position of power over you."

2. Retaliation: Destiny mobilizes his highly involved community (called DGG) to harass those who criticize him, including small streamers he has had (or even still has) sexual relationships with. He has leaked nudes, threatened to leak nudes, secretly recorded and leaked private conversations, and directed his audience to participate in the doxxing of a small streamer he was in a sexual relationship with. In 2011 he even planned to kill a teenager who'd sabotaged his ability to stream.

Destiny has acknowledged his bullying behavior.

In a 2020 stream, trans creator Demon Mama told Destiny: "[...] my Twitter was a nice peaceful haven, and then one interaction with you and I've got people dropping t-slurs on me, f-slur–someone telling me I should be hung for being an f-slur. [...] There's just this pattern that keeps happening with your behavior."

Destiny responded, "[...] Cause a lot of harm? I hope, against certain people, that maybe they're bullied off Twitter because there are a lot of toxic fucks on this platform that make it a horrible fucking place to be around."

On March 15, 2023, in a Twitter argument with Ryan Beard, Destiny wrote: "You're hopping into a bandwagon of people accusing me of being a rape apologist because you're still upset that I bullied you off the internet a year ago. Don't play stupid, you know exactly what you're doing."

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3. Sadism: Stream guests, including Destiny’s sex partners, are routinely pitted against each other in emotional gladiator matches over which Destiny presides as the ostensible voice of reason. Destiny frequently expresses joy when others are distressed–even if the distress is severe and accompanied by talk of suicide–and afterwards his audience takes to Reddit and Twitter to revel in what they euphemistically call "drama."

Hasan Piker, now a top Twitch streamer, made his start in Destiny's community before a public falling out. In 2022 he said to his viewers, "I'm not going to rebuild the bridge, bro. No, there is no bridge to be fucking rebuilt. Too many years of him fucking farming content off my ass, you know, trying to get me to turn into a fucking lolcow. I would have probably killed myself if I wasn't able to fucking completely escape the grips of [Destiny's community.] Straight up, one hundred percent."

(By "farming content," Piker means Destiny was intentionally causing him distress as an easy way to entertain viewers. A "lolcow" is a disgraced internet figure whose misery attracts an audience of sadists.)

When asked for an interview for this report, Piker declined, saying: “My abusive experience is extensively documented and endlessly retconned by DGG.”

4. Narrative control: Destiny’s penchant for deception and his astounding dedication to silencing critics makes it difficult for newcomers to understand how his system of content creation operates. Criticism is frequently banned in his Subreddit, Discord, and audience chat. Smaller streamers who leech off of his audience, referred to as “orbiters” (I was one of them), act as PR tentacles, going to great lengths to stay in Destiny’s good graces. To shut down criticism outside the community (or "misinformation," as he puts it) Destiny tells his audience "if you see something, say something."

The above behaviors are not permitted in most professional environments, yet they are allowed on YouTube, except perhaps calls for harassment. But Destiny lays down a foundation of plausible deniability wherever he can, and this allows him to fly under YouTube's radar. Who Am I?

I'm a streamer, rapper, video essayist, and occasional writer. I've made provocative content all my life, but most recently I'm known for projects such as "The mrgirl RealDoll Review" (a disturbing and pornographic personal documentary about how a sex doll affected my relationship with my girlfriend, Shaelin), "The Gender Narrative" (a nonpartisan video essay about how we talk about gender), and my "Cuties" review (infamous because I said that the twerking 11-year-olds in the film were hot). That last project inspired thousands of white supremacists to send me death threats, but I can say without hesitation that the harassment I've received from Destiny's community has been worse.

Since 2020, YouTube has banned and unbanned me once per year, though my current ban has lasted the longest at six months and may well be permanent. In 2007 I was arrested and barred from the University of Colorado campus for two months for telling my classmates we should empathize with the Virginia Tech shooter (the charges were dropped). I even got suspended in high school four times for my satirical newsletter (the suspensions were overturned retroactively). I have a way of getting in trouble without breaking the rules.

Throughout my life, my family, friends, and fans have consistently said, "Oh, Max." Three months into my relationship with Shaelin, by which time I'd already freaked out everyone she knew, a childhood buddy of mine told her, "It's a mistake to assume he enjoys it. He doesn't."

In my YouTube videos and streams I've tried to be as honest as possible, especially about myself, which caused an amusing culture clash when I entered Destiny's sphere just before Christmas in 2021. During the eleven months I spent working with Destiny and his orbiters, their posturing came to take on a darker meaning to me. I now see it as cover for serious abuse.

Destiny and his fans have criticized me for making myself out to be some grotesque hybrid of victim and journalist over the four months I spent writing this report. I'm sure it was jarring to watch me go from professing my brotherly love for Destiny to calling him my emotional abuser, but, that's how these things go.

I am horrified by the abusive system that I profited from for a year, and if Destiny's fans are correct in saying I am driven by hatred, then it is self-hatred. Summary

Note: For readability, transcripts have been altered to remove some filler words such as "um," "like," "you know," etc. Additionally, Discord DMs can be edited and deleted after they've been sent, so the logs presented here may not accurately show what was said at the time. Any corrections made will be noted at the top of the report.

The DDoS Kid: A teenager disrupted Destiny’s ability to stream, and Destiny later said he planned to kill the boy and his father, but decided not to because it wasn’t worth the risk.

Mia Rose: Destiny drunkenly groped a woman on stream. They had a sexual relationship at the time, but both have acknowledged the incident as an assault.

Bluetea: After Destiny leaked a woman’s nudes to his friends, she tweeted out photos of his genitals from his Twitter account. Destiny considered trying to get her dropped from her scholarship.

Melina: Destiny’s wife. They met when she was a 20-year-old fan and he was 30. They have both characterized Destiny’s treatment of her as psychologically abusive, and Melina has said it makes her feel suicidal.

Bob7: Melina’s confidante and sexting partner for a year. When Bob told Melina and a mutual friend of Destiny’s he thought Destiny was manipulative, Destiny made false harassment allegations against him on behalf of a few women. When the women didn’t support the smear campaign, Destiny smeared them as well.

Ana: Destiny had sex with a small streamer who became attached to him. When she criticized his lifestyle, he called her an insane stalker, which only provoked her to criticize him further. At the same time that Destiny convinced his fans and orbiters that Ana’s abuse claims should be ignored for her own good, he was sexting her. At one point Destiny threatened to leak Ana’s nudes if she leaked his sexts. He also directed his fans to participate in harassing and doxxing Ana in retaliation for her abuse claims.

Sam: Destiny supported a mayoral candidate in Omaha who fired him when Destiny’s reputation attracted negative press coverage. Sam was a local college-aged resident who criticized him. After a battle of harsh and vulgar words, Destiny emailed Sam’s employer to try to get him fired.

Darius: Melina, a former sex partner of Darius, asked him to move to Austin with her after Destiny cheated on her. They had a falling out, and Darius was suicidal. Destiny presided over a livestreamed fight between the two and viciously mocked Darius.

Merrick: A former sex partner of Destiny’s. He publicly mocked her suicide attempt three weeks after it happened.

Denims and Littleefox: Two young female streamers, both in sexual relationships with Destiny. After Destiny and Melina withdrew an invitation to host the two in their apartment, Destiny smeared Denims as a liar on stream because he was afraid one of them might make a false sexual misconduct allegation against him.

WhiteNervosa: A small trans streamer whom Destiny flirted with while boosting her career, likely not knowing she was trans. Around the time she started appearing on camera, Destiny lost interest and stopped growing her stream.

Vaush: First a fan, then an orbiter, and then a competitor. Destiny pounced on the opportunity to humiliate and sabotage Vaush when he was accused of sexual harassment. Destiny later cut ties with Vaush because his partner and friend campaigned for Destiny’s deplatforming after Destiny made a call for violence against BLM rioters.

Assorted Stories

Lav: A 24-year-old who became sexually involved with Destiny as he encouraged her to start streaming and helped her grow her stream. Destiny set her up to be routinely humiliated and harassed by his community to the point of feeling suicidal. When she spoke out about it, he and his orbiters launched a misogynistic harassment campaign against her.

Me, and Destiny's Platforming of Nick Fuentes: I became Destiny’s friend and orbiter, and slowly realized he was intentionally creating situations where I would be hurt or humiliated. When Destiny became friendly with far-right extremist Nick Fuentes, I confronted him. Destiny banned me from his subreddit, Fuentes’s followers got me banned from YouTube, and I cut ties with Destiny.

The DDoS Kid

In the spring of 2011, a teenage boy used a paid service to intermittently flood Destiny's IP address with junk traffic, known as a DDoS attack. He'd launch the attacks during Destiny's streams, breaking his internet connection and making it impossible for him to work.

The teen, named Jacob, eventually contacted Destiny over Skype so he could gloat. This gave Destiny and his fans enough information to track down Jacob's address and phone number.

Destiny called Jacob's phone and demanded to speak to his parents. When Jacob refused and blocked his number, Destiny called again via Google Voice and, according to his own retelling, "started sending him pictures over Skype of his sister."

According to Destiny, Jacob's father sent Destiny an email denying the extent of Jacob's harassment, and even suggested that Destiny befriend Jacob rather than fight him.

Instead, Destiny crafted a plan to kill Jacob and his father. He later explained on stream:

"Oh, I did troll the shit out of the DDOS kid. That's a guy, that's one of the people, legitimately, like, I was so, you have no, it's actually kind of scary how close I was to getting people together to go down to his house and kill him and his family. Or, it would have been just him and his father, because I didn't know anything about–dude, that was some of the most fucked up shit in my entire life, I was so fucking close to doing it.

But I was making so much money on Twitch and I, I don't know if [my son] was involved, and yeah, but for whatever reason I decided that the current life I had wasn't worth the risk of–oh my god, oh my god, I was so close, I had his fucking address, I had streets mapped out, and I had ev–you have no fucking idea, that's when I first started to get an interest in owning a weapon, I got a permit to own a gun and everything."

Ultimately, Destiny found a way to defend against the DDoS attacks, and went on to write a widely-referenced protection guide.

In August 2017, responding to a video criticizing his earlier remarks about the incident, Destiny said:

"His dad emailed me back after I told him that I knew his son was doing it. His first email was denial, I think, and then after I confronted him again, his next email was basically saying that his son was very intelligent, that I would do good to befriend him, and that I shouldn't say mean things about his family. Basically the father had shirked all responsibility, he wasn't assuring me whatsoever that he was going to keep his child from doing anything again, and then later on he sent me another email claiming that his whole family of lawyers was going to take me to court and send me back to carpet cleaning because of the mean things that I was saying on his son online.

"So on top of all of this going on, I had had three independent interviews with the FBI trying to figure out how to stop this from going on. Of course, every interview with the FBI dead ends as soon as they found out you play video games, because they no longer take it seriously, even if you state that you've lost over $5,000 in business, so I never had anything there. So I guess if you put yourself in my position, I'm pretty much being forced out of work by a person at their leisure for whatever reason, and I'm just losing thousands and thousands of dollars. I can't pay my bills–I never got that bad where I couldn't pay my bills, but like, I'm losing thousands and thousands of dollars, I can't work, I know where the kid lives, I know all of his information, I've contacted his parent and his dad won't do anything to stop him, so yeah, I got pretty fucking irritated. I don't know if like this is comparable to like rape or some other type of like aggravated assault, but–not even, because at least in those cases you can go and find somebody to help you. But I was completely out of luck here, I would just have to sit in my house and watch my internet connection get roasted every single day. I wasn't able to stream, it wasn't right.

"So, I don't know if any of this ends up working out as a justification for killing somebody and their family–probably not. I do get a little bit extreme on my stream sometimes and I do exaggerate things, but I mean for the most part I'll take credit for what I say. I'm not going to sit here and say that like, "Oh you know I never even thought about it" or whatever, because that would be a lie. I was very, very fucking frustrated with this kid and I had exhausted every single legal option. Is that a justification for killing somebody? Probably not, it's probably not a good reason to do it."

In December 2017, Destiny said of the controversy: "Yeah, the kid I wanted to kill? I still stand by that. Fuck that dude and his family."

Speaking to two streamers named Mr. Metokur and Andy Warski, Destiny said the FBI had refused to help and that a lawsuit would have been too expensive.

Destiny: So I was basically completely out of options. So pretty much at this point in my life, my–

Metokur: So you went with the next option–murder.

Destiny: Well, I'm curious, so I'll spin it to you, what would you do at this point? Would you just quit your whole career and go do something else, or… and just, to be clear, I don't think I was legitimately planning to murder him, I was just incredibly fucking frustrated.

Warski: You keep saying you were, though.

Metokur: You've got a streamer who's admitting that he tracked down information on a minor to find out where he lives, that streamer owns a gun and he's shown that gun multiple times on stream, he's made numerous statements that he had a plan to follow or kill this child and that he isn't remorseful about it. My question is how the fuck did the FBI not come to talk to you about that, rather than the kid bombing your stream?

Destiny: I don't know, my dude…

On March 12, 2023, Destiny again argued that lethal force against the DDoS kid would have been justified during a debate about Islam with a streamer named Qorantos:

Qorantos: Aren't you the same man that wanted to kill somebody for DDoSing you a few years ago? I wouldn't say that it's an insane line that is impossible–of course, if you don't consider yourself normal, then ignore everything that I'm saying–

Destiny: Am I the same man who wanted to kill somebody who was cutting away all of my income, who I had no recourse through the FBI or the police, when I had a child support and a house to care for, and a guy was basically slashing my tires every single day when I was trying to go into work? Yeah, I was getting pretty desperate in that situation, correct. You're trying to prove a point–

Qorantos: Okay, so let me get somewhere–so you are comfortable with not only violence, but killing somebody, even though they didn't hurt you physically? Or they didn't do anything to you other than cut your source of income? You are one hundred percent comfortable with killing somebody.

Destiny: Yeah, I guess if somebody was cutting your source of income every day that you use to support your family, then yeah, I probably would. Yeah, go for it. If you came outside every single day and some guy was slashing your tires and he wouldn't stop and you call the police, and nobody wanted to do anything? Despite having proof for it? And you're like well fuck I'm gonna have to attack this dude, and maybe even kill him? Yeah, sure. Go for it. I think that's okay.

Qorantos: [...] So you're telling me because you were DDoSed, and you weren't able to provide for your family, you would 100% resort and you would justify–you would still stand by it today. Cuz–

Destiny: Yeah, of course.

Qorantos: So till this day, you stand by it? Because there's plenty of things that you say you do not stand by that you cringe at, because it happened in the past. So is this not one of those things?

Destiny: No, this is something I would stand by, absolutely. This was like an easy–yeah, of course.

When discussing this story, fans of Destiny tend to either agree with his rationalization or they dismiss it as hyperbole.

For example:

If someone was stealing your stuff, you'd justifiably be angry and have a right to defend yourself from the next time it happened. This kid was burning his money, lighting it up in flames, just to mess with him. How would you act? Can you ask yourself this question honestly? Because Destiny exhausted every possible angle - he went to the police, the FBI, he even found the address where they lived and contacted the father, who was a recalcitrant asshole.

... And nobody gave a shit, because nobody gives a shit about some kid making your video-game time go away, and that's all anybody saw it as. So yeah. I understand his anger, even empathise with it, up to the point of action - which he clearly did not commit.

(2017 YouTube comment, 50 likes)

My interpretation is that he was never serious about it, but did think about physically visiting the kid's house to talk to the dad.

(2018 Reddit comment, 12 upvotes)

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It kinda ties into the whole shoot-on-sight after home invasion thing. He really values personal property and his personal rights.

(2018 Reddit comment, 12 upvotes)

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A Destiny fan created a Reddit poll asking, "Would destiny have been justified in killing that kid had he never stopped and there was no other way to make him stop?"

312 people voted no. 199 voted yes.

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In a 2023 post (with 149 comments and 0 upvotes) titled "Okay the thing about Destiny planning to kill the kid kinda caught me off guard," the author explicitly asks his fellow fans to help him resolve his cognitive dissonance, writing "Im making this post to see if anyone can help me think of this in a different way, because that story really soured my opinion of Destiny."

Link | Archive

Mia Rose

On January 1, 2012, when Destiny was 23, he drunkenly groped the breasts of adult actress and fellow streamer Mia Rose during a livestream. They did have a sexual relationship at the time, and she did (voluntarily) sit on his lap during the stream–but the groping was unwanted.

Destiny has consistently acknowledged this incident as a sexual assault, though he tends to joke about it.

In 2022 he suggested that he may have been a victim of peer pressure to drink that night:

"I'm gonna be completely honest. That was a stream where everybody in that stream was encouraging me to drink way more than I ever had before… Did I do dumb shit on that stream? Yeah, for sure. I wish I was a woman so I didn't have any accountability for my actions, though."

Mia Rose has occasionally tweeted about the incident:

July 4, 2020:

It was years ago. [But] I chalked it up to, being young, everyone had too much to drink, and I wanted to [be] around those people to get my name out. I know Destiny is toxic. But I have no issues with him…

Link

November 13, 2022:

It happened. I did nothing at the time. It was way before there was any info in my world about what was right and wrong. I thought I had put myself into that situation. But at the end of the day he did assault me. He had apologized. And we left it alone.

Link

On March 14, 2023, Mia Rose tweeted:

Would love an apology. I don’t think he ever will. But everyone that was there, hell, even just the stream viewers could see, we didn’t “make him drink” we were all drinking. And that isn’t a pass to grab anyone on livestream. The whole trip was odd.

Link

He has apologized on streams and such,

Indirectly. It’s fine. I know he regrets it.

Link

Based on their public statements, neither Mia Rose nor Destiny seem to think this event was a big deal, but I've included it nonetheless for the sake of completeness.

Bluetea

Bluetea was a competitive StarCraft 2 streamer, like Destiny.

In August 2012, she logged into his Twitter and tweeted out photos of his genitals.

She posted the following explanation to Destiny's subreddit:

I'll come out and say this is Bluetea. I really have nothing to lose. Long story short, Destiny leaked nude pictures of me to his Skype friends. He then joked about how "fucking hideous" my face is compared to my "beautiful body." They joked about how I look like Shrek. I do have a big nose, I guess.

Someone who apparently was in the chat room emailed me from a gmail account consisting of a bunch of random numbers. It had the chat log.

When I confronted him about it, he first feigned ignorance. When it became clear he was then just going to ignore me, I snapped. I had his email password from when I used to help schedule his lessons. I changed his email password, which enabled me to change his Twitter and Skype passwords. I have a folder full of dick picks and, because I am so nice, tried to choose the most flattering to post.

My actions resulted from the build-up of many things he's done to me that I don't have time to mention, but his betrayal of my trust was the last straw. I hope you enjoy his penis.

TL;DR - Don't leak nudes of me because I will steal your Twitter and post pictures of your dick.

Deleted | Archive

Destiny responded within 11 minutes:

Was to two people***, not an entire chat room of people, two people that I consider pretty close friends.

I never feigned ignorance, just didn't want to get into it right before an MLG.

I can't imagine how you can think that people will never, ever, ever talk about anything personal or private amongst their friends. Maybe I'm just stupid, but I can't see myself caring at all if you shared pictures between your close friends, especially given the fact that I'd never see any of them in real life.

Glad you think you have a right to every single private conversation I ever have, though. Posting pictures of my dick to 37k people + cutting me off from access to my e-mail/twitter is probably reasonable payback for me discussing something personal with two friends.

Thanks for the new work location, I wonder what your boss will think of this. Or your dean, for that matter. I wonder if it'd affect your scholarship or financial aid?

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Within the next several hours, Bluetea deleted her Reddit account.

Destiny dropped out of a tournament he was playing in.

The response from Destiny's fans was overwhelmingly negative, but he doubled down in another comment:

It's not about "teaching someone a lesson," it's just punishment. I'm pretty sure what she did was illegal on quite a few levels, and the fact that it's damaging to a business that I use to support my family makes me a little less willing to "turn the other cheek."

Yeah, I acted pretty scumbaggish and shared her picture with a couple friends. But for her to leak a bunch of shit to 40k people? Why on earth wouldn't I share that with her employer and school when she tried to effectively destroy my livelihood?

Fans were quick to point out that nude pictures were unlikely to harm his career: You really think you'll take a serious financial hit from this? I imagine you might lose a reasonable number of twitter followers, but I'd be surprised if this really hurts your stream even in the short term.

Erisanne, Destiny's then-girlfriend (who was not aware he'd been sexting with Bluetea), made a supportive public statement asking fans to stop talking about the incident, for Destiny's sake.

A commenter asked her: How does it feel to come home from a long day of shift work, and live with a piece of shit. How does it feel to know that he is cheating on you, he was trying to pick up women at the bar last night.

Erisanne replied: Languished, forlorn, bereft, desolate. Thank you.

Melina

In February 2019, when Destiny was 30, he flew to New Zealand to meet two young Swedish fans he'd been speaking to for months. Melina and her boyfriend Max were 20 and 19 years old and in a polyamorous relationship.

Max played the role of cameraman for much of the livestreamed trip, looking on awkwardly as Destiny made advances on Melina. At one point, Destiny left Max in charge of the stream while he and Melina went into the bedroom and shut the door. Max joked that he was being cucked. Vocalizations can be heard in the background after that. Most fans agree they are sex sounds, but Destiny maintains he and Melina were not having sex. (This was after Max had admitted on stream that Melina was his only partner, casting doubt on the legitimacy of his "poly" identification.)

A user in Destiny's subreddit posted:

The polygamy isn't what's off-putting about these streams. What's off-putting is that a 30 year old man who claims to understand power dynamics flew halfway across the globe to have sex with young women who have obviously developed parasocial relationships with him.

(692 upvotes)

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Melina eventually broke up with Max and moved to the United States to live with Destiny. They are in an open relationship and were married in December 2021.

Initially boosted by her association with Destiny, Melina has become a successful streamer in her own right, focusing on travel, fitness, and showing off her body.

Destiny has described himself as psychologically abusive in relationships. In January 2021, he said: "I'm a really rough person to be in a relationship with, okay? Anybody that survives a relationship with me for more than, like, six months, okay, props to that person, 'cause they're going through some severe fucking psychological abuse. It's a fucking hard thing to deal with. I'm not joking."

Destiny has publicly stated that he has access to Melina's Discord account, and is thus privy to her communications with others in the streaming world. On January 14, 2021, Destiny said on stream that they both have access to each other's DMs, but that Melina's jealousy may dissuade her from reading his. In 2022 Destiny was revealed to be hiding a serious affair as well as a sexting relationship from Melina, both of which used Discord DMs as a primary form of communication.

Friends and viewers of Destiny have voiced suspicions that he sometimes impersonates Melina by sending private messages from her account.

Melina has told multiple people that the pain of their relationship drives her to thoughts of suicide, and these conflicts frequently spill out into public view.

Bob7

Note: This report is agnostic as to Bob7's character or whether he sexually harassed any women, and this section is included to highlight Destiny's behavior and use of his platform.

Before my first conversation with Melina in January 2022, Destiny leaned into the doorway behind her and said: "Don't let him mindfuck you."

I couldn't understand why he'd said that until I did my research for this story.

Bob7, a small streamer, was Melina's confidant for most of 2020 when he was 25 and she was 22. His ostensible goal was to improve her mental health, and he compared their relationship to that of a therapist and a patient. They also sexted.

Melina shared intimate details of her relationship with Destiny, including how his treatment of her made her feel suicidal. She also told Bob private stories about Destiny's past.

Believing that Destiny was manipulative and abusive, Bob encouraged Melina to either confront him or leave the relationship. One time when she did confront him, Destiny asked if the confrontation had been Bob's idea.

Eventually, Melina fell in love with Bob, hinting that she would only be able to leave Destiny if she had another relationship to flee to.

Bob was not interested in Melina. He was, however, interested in Boze, the 28-year-old female streamer who was also dating Destiny.

Bob and Boze became fast friends, gossiping daily about the dysfunctional relationship between Destiny and Melina. Sometimes the gossiping took the form of Bob actively warning Boze about Destiny's manipulative nature and telling her the secrets he'd learned from Melina.

You may have figured this out already, but Melina isn't fond of sharing Destiny with other women, and Destiny doesn't like to deal with the emotional backlash from Melina. But because of Bob's meddling, Boze and Melina had come to hate each other, and both were wary of Destiny.

Eventually, the two women would meet and compare notes on Bob. They realized he was prone to shit-talking behind each of their backs, and decided that it was he who was manipulative after all, and not Destiny (apparently it didn't occur to them that both men might be manipulative).

Boze bluntly informed Bob that she no longer wished to be friends. Melina confronted him about degrading things he had said about her, like saying her stream was best watched with the sound off. Bob's grip on the women in Destiny's life had finally been loosened.

At this point, Destiny decided to use his platform to destroy Bob.

On January 3, 2021, Destiny engineered a group call including six women who knew Bob and, with the help of one of the women, secretly recorded the others talking about their experiences with Bob.

Destiny's opening salvo was a January 4, 2021 stream uploaded with the title "Bob7 Allegations Involving Melina, BigBossBoze, Peach and More," in which he painted Bob as a malicious womanizer out to torpedo Destiny's personal relationships.

During the stream, Destiny described his strategy for gaining control of the situation: "I play a little Death Note game where I'm having Melina send certain messages to Bob, and now I'm reading messages between Bob and Melina because I can read Melina's DMs, Boze is sending me messages between her and Bob so I can read those […]."

He ended the video with a threat, should Bob attempt to defend himself: "If it ever like–if push comes to shove, there is a lot of like really really realy–like this is all kind of like dumb shit. There's a lot of like really fucked up shit, fucked that Bob7 did that even people in his personal life don't know about that's really fucked, but that will probably never see the light of day. I shouldn't actually say that cuz now I'm like, teasing it, but if Bob7 decides to try to make some response video like vindicating himself I'll probably just like nuke that shit from orbit."

Bob countered with a 40-page document containing dozens of screenshots to paint a picture of Destiny as an emotional abuser trying to shut down Bob's genuine concerns about the women in his life. This was fairly successful, and had Destiny uncharacteristically on the defensive for a moment, but with Destiny's second and final attack, Bob's fate would be sealed.

The video, streamed January 17, 2021, was titled: "Bob7 Manifesto: Addressing My Allegations." It currently sits at more than 700,000 views. In the video, he read aloud a document he'd written titled "The Bob7 Manifesto," which again painted Bob as a slimy sexual harasser. He also played clips from the January 3 call, some of which Destiny had edited to make them more damning of Bob.

Two days before the stream, one of the women who'd been secretly recorded in the January 3 call released a statement recanting the allegations Destiny had publicized in his first video. Hours before the stream on January 17, she pleaded on Twitter to be left out of Destiny's upcoming second strike:

The following is a message to Destiny. I have no way of contacting him myself so I have to post this publicly.

Hi Destiny,

This clip came into my knowledge this morning. https://clips.twitch.tv/InquisitiveDeterminedPizzaOSsloth

I just wanted to let you know that I do not consent to any public spreading of any call or recording I am in. I do not wish to be in any part of what you plan to release, and doing so will be without my consent. I do not want to be part of this further at all.

Please do not harass me.

Thanks, Ofeliabear

Link | Archive

Destiny ignored her request, opting instead to poke holes in her statement exonerating Bob. Referring to her as "Ofelia, the Manipulated," Destiny said that Bob had manipulated her into withdrawing her allegation that he'd sexually harassed her. At the end of the section, he wrote:

I would like to make it clear that I do not really hold Ofeliabear personally responsible for her 180. I think that she is a victim in all of this, and Bob7, Kaceytron and Minx have played a role in her manipulation, convincing her that it’s in her best interest to side with Bob7 here.

Eleemoon, another woman on the recorded group call, complained about Destiny using her name in his video. (Destiny claimed that Bob had leaked one of Eleemoon's nudes, which Eleemoon did not believe.) On January 18, 2021, Destiny wrote in his public chat:

REDACTED 1 is Eleemoon

by the way

if you guys wanted that

what a snakey piece of shit

might release her unedited/unmasked audio later

Literally every single girl ended up flipping sides

Except for Melina, Peachachoo, Boze and Erisann

just my original friends

(Destiny had sexual relationships with Melina, Boze, and Erisann.)

The same day, in a streamed confrontation between Destiny and Eleemoon, they had the following exchange:

Eleemoon: Shut the fuck up, dude, I said like, leave me out of this.

Destiny: I never mentioned your name. Nobody knew you were here until you tweeted it, honey.

Eleemoon: Oh my god. Talking to a groomer. Talking about Bob being creepy when you started dating Melina when she was like 18 and you were like, what, forty million years old. Like, actual weirdo.

Destiny: Dude, I know so much personal information about you. Why are you trying to take shots at me right now? Are you serious? [...] I don't want to sound like I'm threatening anybody, but like, you should slow down on the personal insults. Cuz you're like, way out of your league dude, you are way the fuck out of your league.

Kaceytron, another female streamer Destiny secretly recorded in a private call, was frustrated that he'd framed her talking about another woman's experience with Bob as her making her own allegation. In response to her public skepticism about the veracity of Destiny's claims, in his "Bob7 Manifesto" stream, Destiny had gone on on an unconvincing tirade about how she'd betrayed their friendship by having the audacity to "put her fucking nose into this."

A January 21 post in Destiny's subreddit, titled "Kaceytron Defends Bob7 Behind The Scenes Saying Harassment Allegations Are Lies," earned 553 upvotes. The top comment, with 210 upvotes, reads:

Kacey all you had to do was stick your head in the sand and fucking ignore the drama, and let Bob7 go down in flames. You didn't have to get involved at all, but you threw yourself into the coffin while we were lowering Bob7 in for pretty much no reason.

I hope it was worth it.

Link | Archive

Destiny's video was compelling enough to tilt public opinion back in his favor and destroy Bob's reputation.

Bob released a 60-page document along with a 9-hour response video meticulously detailing all of Destiny's inaccuracies and misleading audio edits, which Destiny ignored.

Destiny's audience and adjacent communities, having bought into Destiny's version of events, also ignored Bob's response, leaving it largely unseen.

Bob did attempt to return to streaming, but he has since deleted all of his stream VODs and videos made after October 2020.

I included Bob's story because it shows Destiny's willingness to use his platform to crush his girlfriend's best friend for personal reasons and then to lash out at the women who refused to be used as pawns.

I also relate to this story on a personal level. In August of 2022, Melina reached out to me for emotional support. She told me essentially the same things she'd told Bob, and asked why Destiny treats her the way he does. We spoke a few times, but essentially I said I thought Destiny was a very guarded person and that she should discuss it with a therapist.

Unlike Bob, while I was pretty worried about Melina, I didn't think I could do much to help her, much less while sexting her (I've tried that before in my life, to no avail.)

I also had a sense that I was perilously close to an invisible line. When you upset Destiny, you don't get an angry DM–you hear about it the next day on his stream.

Ana

In October 2019, Ana was 29 and had no social media following. Before ever meeting Destiny, Ana tweeted about how he lacks empathy and probably has a personality disorder. In another streamer's chat, she criticized Destiny's "repeated casual sex with no interest in an intimate relationship."

By January of 2020 she had somewhat warmed to Destiny. She messaged him on Instagram, introducing herself as a graduate student in psychology. According to Ana, Destiny asked if she was familiar with open relationships. Given his open relationship with Melina, Ana took the question to be a sexual overture, to which she was receptive.

On May 22, 2020, Ana and Destiny did their first stream together–a debate about open relationships. With the audience unaware of their sexting, Ana introduced the topic as "just some research that I was recently reading about," and presented research indicating that non-monogamy is correlated with predatory personality traits such as narcissism and Machiavellianism.

They soon did a second stream about altruism, in which Ana argued that doing things for other people increases psychological well-being (in my opinion because she wanted to challenge Destiny's lack of empathy).

That summer, Destiny proposed that he visit Ana for a week.

Ana agreed, but she expressed concern that he would grow distant or even cut her off after they had sex. Destiny assured her: "I understand the concern. But that would be a huge time investment just to hook up with someone xD"

A week before the scheduled meeting, Ana and Destiny did a third stream–a debate about whether "dark triad" antisocial personality traits are correlated with open relationships.

For the first 90 minutes, Ana tried to convince Destiny that people in open relationships have trust issues and avoidant attachment patterns. Not taking the bait, Destiny kept the conversation intellectual. Ana commented that his judgment might be impaired because the topic hits close to home. Destiny called this a power play and they argued about it for two hours. Eventually Ana started crying and told him he was being abusive.

At the end of the (four-and-a-half hour) conversation, Ana said Destiny should ban any chatters who called her abusive and manipulative, and he politely avoided the suggestion.

In mid-August, the week of Melina's 22nd birthday, Destiny and Ana spent several days in a hotel together. They had sex, talked, and he did his normal streams from the hotel room

Despite an agreement to keep the visit a secret, Ana briefly streamed from the hotel room as well, effectively outing their sexual relationship. She would later claim this was unintentional, but I'm skeptical.

Ana has described Destiny as having a "revenge kink" where manipulative dynamics involving lying and blackmail are fetishized, and I mention it now because the rest of this story will make a lot more sense if you are aware of this.

At the end of the week, Destiny left to join Melina in Sweden. From the airport, he DMed Ana: "OKAY ABOUT TO BOARD MY FIRST FLIGHT. THANKS FOR THE PAST FEW DAYS ANA I HAD A LOT OF FUN 🙂"

She replied: "I did too Destiny❤️Have safe flights!!! Talk to you later!"

But the next day, she wrote: "Oh boy I'm pretty sad… it just kinda hit me today out of nowhere 😔 I also feel angry with you… cuz you did make it sound like you're more poly & willing to date other people… Your lifestyle choices are extremely abnormal and not at all like most poly people. I mean do you really just see me as a friend still? How… is that even possible to be that callous and cold, Destiny? I don't want to believe that you are."

He replied: "Hmmm I mean 'as a friend still' I mean what do you mean? I mean sex stuff aside having met you in real life and talked and gone around and stuff you're definitely a way closer friend than you were before for sure."

Ana responded with several messages containing increasingly sharp criticisms, culminating in "The fact that you feel entitled to get sex from tons of different people but not have to meet their emotional needs (which are sexual needs!) is textbook Narcissism. It's extreme entitlement and selfishness that enables a person to treat other human beings the way you do. It's morally reprehensible."

Over the next few days Ana sent dozens of anxious and critical messages with little response from Destiny. Eventually he would be warm again, even flirtatious, but not consistently.

Meanwhile, Destiny's fans were putting the pieces together. From Ana's stream chat they asked if she'd slept with Destiny during his trip. She giggled and said they shouldn't ask her that, which many took as confirmation.

Not receiving the promised attention from Destiny, Ana sent him Psychology Today articles about stonewalling and narcissism. She also criticized what she perceived as his sociopathic vindictiveness, in part because of a story he'd told her (and others) about how he once lied to his ex's boss to get her fired from her job.

On one of her own streams, she criticized Destiny for moving across the country from his son. When I spoke to her, she told me she'd innocently mentioned some psychology research about how sons should spend time with their fathers, but the clip was not how she described it at all. In reality, while reading a chat message saying Destiny was a good father, Ana burst into mocking laughter before saying: "Yeah, because we all know to be a good father the best thing to do is move a million miles away from your son–I'm gonna stop, before someone clips that shit."

Someone did, and on October 5, 2020, Destiny did his first Ana attack stream.

"I have had some clips linked to me today. I don't normally torch bridges, unless other people want to do it first, in which case, fuck it." He played the clip of Ana calling him a bad father, and launched into a play-by-play of their relationship, mostly complaining that she had messaged him relentlessly after they had sex.

One chatter asked: "Destiny why are you doing this? What do you gain out of publicly ridiculing this girl?"

Destiny replied: "I'm not trying to–the problem is she just keeps saying really fucking rude and disgusting shit about me on her stream. It's really fucking irritating, she doesn't realize how fucked in the head it is."

He read aloud some of their DMs (he'd also provided some screenshots to his hungry fans) and accused Ana of victim-blaming Destiny for a past relationship in which he claims his ex was physically abusive.

By the end of the stream, the chat had made hundreds of angry and critical comments about Ana ("YOU LITERALLY SLEPT WITH A PSYCHO").

Ana heard about the stream soon after it happened, and messaged Destiny that night: "Why would you do this…. I'm freaking out… Shouldn't you be reported for outing my private sexual details???"

At 4:05am: "I'm just really so sad Destiny… I trusted you to talk with me about how you were feeling about me… Also I'm sorry for all the messages but I've been freaking out and panicking for hours."

The next night: "I can't tell if this is you just wanting some space or is this you cutting off the friendship? Silence doesn't communicate anything."

The following day, October 7, Destiny agreed to talk to Ana again… on stream.

Before the conversation began, Destiny was nervous and fidgety.

Destiny asked his friend Dan, "Do you think I should hash it all out on stream?"

Dan answered, "A hundred percent."

Dan Saltman is a family man, and a recurring character on the stream.

"I feel like there's a non-zero chance that this person would actually kill themselves, that's the only reason why I feel like it's probably not a good idea," Destiny said.

Dan pressed him: "You have to, though. It's not gonna end, and it's just fucking cringe for everyone else…"

"Well, I feel like at this point I'm literally capitalizing on somebody else's mental illness for my profit."

And with that, Destiny added Ana to the stream.

Destiny repeated his complaints about Ana's endless critical messages about his psychology, and they argued about whether Ana has the right to publicly call Destiny's sexual relationships abusive, with Destiny saying: "You're not allowed to express concern with any of my personal relationships that I don't want your opinion on."

Destiny also defended his tendency to retaliate against others: "When you say 'you've left a trail of destruction behind you,' the implication there is generally that I'm traumatizing or abusing or hurting people that otherwise don't deserve it…"

Ana: Nobody deserves that… How could you say that?

Destiny: Because sometimes people do real dickish things, and I think if you do dickish things back, it's not the worst thing in the world.

Ana: That doesn't give you the right to do anything back at them. That gives you no right to retaliate.

Destiny: Yeah, we're not talking about who's right–first of all, I have the right to do anything I want. Okay? Fuck that.

Ana: No you don't. See? Right there. Entitlement.

Destiny: That's not entitlement. Wait, what do you mean? As long as I'm not hurting anybody else, I have a right to talk about or do anything I want.

Ana: Okay, well you just said you have a right to do whatever you want.

Destiny: Wait, what did you think I meant with that, Ana? Did you think I meant I should be able to shoot somebody, or punch somebody, or choke somebody? Do you really think that's what I meant with that? Is that the read we're going with here?

Because Ana felt obligated to keep Destiny's secret about getting his ex fired from her job, his fans were clueless about the context of this argument.

A member of Destiny's community called Linus offered a lukewarm defense of Destiny's vindictiveness.

Linus: Wait, Ana, are there varying degrees of abuse? Like, is there a greater and lesser form of abuse?

Ana: Linus, you cannot–you seem like a really nice person. You cannot seriously–oh my God.

Linus: I haven't said anything, I'm just asking you.

Ana: Sure, yes.

Linus: So it could be that, maybe when Destiny is retaliating, is it a little bit abusive. Right, it's a little bit abusive. But is it–

Ana: It's still abusive.

Linus: Yes, it's still abusive. But maybe in the context of Destiny being a streamer, and Destiny being an entertainer, and these being public conflicts, and Destiny's desire to drum up attention–these are things that a normal person doesn't interact with, right? You can't prescribe these things that you would talk about in a normal intimate relationship to someone who has a wide public image. Right?

When Ana asked Destiny if he thinks he's harming people, he replied, "Yeah probably, but if they're inflicting harm onto me I don't really care that much."

Ana: That's what concerns me.

Destiny: Oh my god.

Linus: I think that most people are okay inflicting some amount of harm on others

Ana: Uh, what?

Linus: …it's extremely difficult for me to not ever be mean ever. Right? Like, I'm gonna be mean at some point in time… and it's okay to point out and say, "Hey, you shouldn't be mean," but it's different to say I've left a trail of victims because I've been mean to people sometimes.

Ana: But I think what you're talking about is people making normal mistakes and stuff, but I'm talking about an observable pattern of behavior.

Linus: I don't know that you could call that observable pattern of behavior out in the clinical sense… My main observation here is that Destiny has behaviors that probably cause you a lot of anxiety, and your anxiety causes Destiny to feel a lot of stress…

Linus claimed Ana didn't have enough information about Destiny's relationships to call his behavior abusive, and that without reaching out to the other people affected, which would be inappropriate, she can't comment on it.

Destiny capped off the defensive triple-team by saying, "You're making yourself the victim. I'm the victim here" and later adding, "If you want to bring any friend into here and you want to let me explain what's happened, I guarantee you they will never ever side with you."

Dan tried to convince Ana to leave Destiny alone, saying "I think both of you understand that moving forward there shouldn't be any additional relationship, friends or not. Just, nothing. No conversation, no nothing, you're incompatible, there's no future, there's no hope."

But moments later, Destiny offered to fly out to argue directly with Ana's therapist.

Near the end of the conversation, Destiny explained why he was attacking her: "I have to protect myself. I can't have a person that is saying incredibly nasty things about me to other people on the platform… I have to come out and give my side of the story, otherwise I look like this horrible abuser behind the scenes. Of course I have to, it's protecting myself."

After the stream, Ana continued to message Destiny about her problems with him. He was mostly unresponsive until Ana presented an opportunity for content–a graduate psychology student had reached out because he was concerned about how Destiny had treated Ana, and he was willing to talk to Destiny.

On October 30, 2020, the student, named Drew, moderated an onstream conversation between Destiny and Ana.

Drew quickly abandoned his goal of mutual understanding, instead focusing on brokering a peace treaty where the two would agree to stop talking about each other in public and have no private contact whatsoever.

Destiny agreed, but was skeptical about the plan: "To be clear, after we had this conversation last time, she was talking about me on her stream the next day… I can make it so that in my community people don't talk about her, link her tweets, do any of that shit anymore, yeah."

However, he then repeated his offer to fly out and do a group therapy session with Ana and her therapist.

Drew implored Ana to seek closure on her own rather than by continuing to talk to Destiny.

Frustrated, Destiny said, "She's walking away from this thinking that I'm the person with most of the problems." Drew asked if that mattered.

"None of this technically matters to me. I have nothing to lose here if my community harasses her forever. In that sense, the prerogative shouldn't be on me to resolve this, it should be on her. I mean, I'm willing to because I don't want to be a cruel evil person."

In a rare moment of semi-vulnerability, Destiny said that Ana had made an ableist attack against him by calling him a sociopath.

The talk ended with both parties agreeing to the unconvincing ceasefire, and Destiny announced that all discussion of Ana was now banned in his community.

In November, Ana sent Destiny several pages worth of unanswered DMs. She shared her ruminations about feeling humiliated, guilty, and angry, and pleaded for him to respond.

On November 22, 2020, while Destiny played Minecraft on stream, Dan read the following open letter to Ana, prefacing it with: "This was a joke, meaning I did not intend for this to be sent."

"Listen here. you crazy fucking bitch. Destiny doesn't want to be with you. He doesn't want to talk to you, he doesn't want to receive your constant desperate Discord messages. In fact, every time we receive one from you, we laugh and laugh about how sad and pathetic you are. Our favorites are the ones where you write paragraphs and paragraphs and we just imagine you desperately waiting by the computer for a response that will never come."

Destiny laughed and said, "Dan, what the fuck is wrong with you?"

Dan continued: "I am not sure how delusional you are to believe that there will ever be a world where Destiny wants to talk to you again, but I wanted to thank you for the incessant entertainment you provide with your incoherent ramblings and pseudo nonsense psychological takes. Let me be as clear as possible so you get the hint, because it seems to me you are incapable of listening. You mean nothing to either of us. We could give two shits if you never contacted either of us ever again. Our feelings about you are similar to that of a newspaper comic–a funny thing to look at once in a while."

After a pause, Destiny said, "Wow, edgy much?"

Three days later, on November 25, 2020, Destiny finally replied to Ana's ongoing DMs, saying: "ANA I DON'T THINK WE'RE GONNA RESOLVE THIS ONE."

Three weeks later, they were sexting again.

On January 25, 2021, Ana told Destny that she'd seen an old clip of him talking about choking his ex-wife.

In the clip, Destiny had said: "...I had to fuckin' choke her out a few fuckin' times. That shit got crazy, hell yeah it did, and I guarantee you that everybody here would probably think I'm a fucking crazy physical abuser, too…"

For context, this was defending MrDeadMoth, a streamer who, in 2018, hit his pregnant wife multiple times on stream after she threw small objects at him. Destiny did a reaction stream where he rationalized the violence against her, calling her an abuser and dismissing her chilling screams as "crocodile tears." In the stream chat, you can watch the mostly-male audience turn against her with ironic jokes ("ONE PUNCH MAN," "kill all women") and sincere identification of MrDeadMoth as the victim ("It sounds like she did this to actually ruin his stream career the way she said 'you're a woman beater' out loud").

Ana: Choking out is like the number one red flag for domestic abuse victims to get out. And you dare call yourself a victim???? You could've killed her. You were never a victim. And you should've gone to jail for that.

Destiny: My ex and I fought all the time, it was always in self defense, I had to call the police on her three times to get her to stop attacking me. You are so unbelievably out of line in this message, it makes me sad to think you are going to have patients in the real world, you should be ashamed of this message.

Ana: We literally screen victims by asking if their partner ever choked them out because it indicates the partner is extremely dangerous. This is attempted murder. No therapist in their right mind would condone what you fucking did.

Destiny: What am I supposed to do if someone has me trapped in a room and is fucking

attacking me

Ana: I mean restraining her wasn't an option?

Destiny: She weighed like 50 lbs more than me are you fucking serious? I was 105 and she was like 160. You make far too many assumptions and judge far too quickly for someone in your position.

Ana: … Both partners have some responsibility. Research shows that in violent relationships, both partners do things that escalate the violence instead of de-escalating it. And all I see from you are behaviors that are aggressive and escalate and you think they are self-defense.

Destiny: I have lived long enough and experienced enough to know this to be true, and you can refer back to this message in 5 years if you're wondering what's going wrong: you have some insanely antisocial tendencies that inhibit you from being able to communicate with or understand other human beings.

You do not understand how people think or feel and, consequently, say unimaginably clueless or horrible things to them…

Good luck with everything, you'll need a ton of it if you're going to make the changes necessary to be even a somewhat competent communicator, let alone a therapist.

He blocked her.

Then he posted screenshots of the DMs in his public chat, calling her insane. Melina replied: "Can we all just try to get her fired? She'll kill people with her words. I hate her with all my heart."

A fan reposted the DMs in Destiny's subreddit with the title: "This is disgusting."

The post received 1,400 upvotes, and the top comment, with 859 upvotes, reads:

It's extremely common for abusers to attempt to discount and minimize their victims' past abuse. Ana is an abuser. She is abusive.

Link | Archive

(On February 12, 2023, Destiny wrote the following comment in my subreddit on a thread about the alleged choking: Just as an FYI I have never choked anyone to or near the point of unconsciousness in my life. I have never even really "choked" someone, it was more just holding onto them from behind to get them to stop hitting me [...].)

Blocked on Discord, Ana messaged Destiny consistently on Instagram for a month, with sporadic replies from Destiny such as: "._. I think we just trigger each other too much Ana lol" and "ANA. NO CONTACT. PLEASE."

The DMs kept coming. On March 16, Destiny apologized to her for attacking her publicly, but six days later he said on stream that the apology had been insincere.

Eventually he blocked Ana on Instagram. She started DMing him on Twitter, at one point asking, "Seriously do you wish I were dead? Would you fucking meme my suicide for content?"

By summer Destiny was sexting her again.

In June, Ana asked Destiny to help repair her reputation.

Destiny: If I said anything now people would just be really dramatic and dumb about stuff.

Ana: Aren't you more concerned with Melina finding out? Not so much what your fanbase thinks. But also it's not like I'm some crazy person lmao you could just say you exaggerated :/

Destiny: I'll cross that bridge when I come to it okay lol. And maybe in the future yayaya. Tease me and make me tweet it out sometime :)

Ana: Oh trueeeeeee now you're giving me ideas :) lots of ideas

[…]

Destiny: I'll fix it sometime publicly okay. Until then you can work on your essays on your bed while I rub your legs and feet okay <3

On July 1, 2021, Destiny and Ana appeared on a panel about mental health and policing together.

On July 17, Ana reiterated her request that they not keep their friendliness a secret.

Destiny: I'm more comfortable keeping things under wraps, but if you're not comfortable [with] that then it's your choice whether you want to continue chatting with me.

Ana: But do you understand why this is shitty for me?

Destiny: Sure I can understand why you'd feel that way, but it doesn't change my position.

On August 29, 2021, Destiny complained on stream that Ana was privately telling people that he's a dark triad abuser.

When Dan expressed dismay that Destiny was still in contact with Ana, Destiny claimed the only way to prevent Ana from going on "constant hate tirades" about him is to "try to be somewhat friendly" with her.

Dan said, "Oh, so you're just giving into blackmail, to be clear… someone's giving you shit, and you're like okay, fuck it, I can't fight it anymore, you win, we're best friends, we're meant to be together forever."

The same day, Destiny DMed Ana: Do you understand that it's really bad that you're making new friends that are already my friend and then venting to them about me?

The following day, on August 30, 2021, Destiny read aloud the following statement in a sarcastic monotone:

"I'm making a public announcement. Anybody that doesn't understand this is getting permanently banned, and we're putting all of this behind us, okay? Listen, me and Ana are perfectly fine. She is not a crazy person, she is not a stalker. We have had fights publicly where there has been name-calling on both sides, but you know what? Everything is cool and we're past all of that…"

The chat reacted with comments like "blink twice if she has a gun to your head" and "SHE HAS SOMETHING ON HIM."

On September 22, 2021, during a 12-person panel show hosted by Jon Zherka, Ana tearfully accused Destiny of emotionally abusing her. The other panelists mostly urged her to calm down and let it go.

Eventually Destiny called in to defend himself. Sounding tired but panicked (he was calling from bed), Destiny accused Ana of consistently breaking their agreements to stop talking about each other.

He then set about discrediting her, explaining how he'd blocked her on Discord and she'd followed him to other platforms.

Ana's rage at the stalker narrative boiled over.

Shouting, she said: "'Goodnight princess, good morning princess,' really? I'm misrepresenting the relationship? Remember all the things you told me about Melina? …I've been fucking protecting you, I've been protecting you, I've been protecting you from lying to Melina, how fucking dare you? If you're gonna do this shit, then I'm leaking it all. I'm not protecting your lying ass anymore."

Zherka jokingly asked, "Destiny, do you feel protected?" But then he added: "…no, Ana, Ana, you're not leaking DMs."

Destiny offered another sarcastic, exasperated apology. "I'm a horrible person! …I accept full responsibility. I have lied to my fiancee, I've lied to my son, I've lied to my community, I'm a horrible manipulative person… every part of this is my fault, and now I'm moving on and I never want to talk about this publicly again."

Zherka backed him up again: "Yeah, that's great–it's closure time, Ana."

Destiny pledged to stop all public and private communication with Ana and left the call. Ana continued to criticize him.

70 minutes later, Destiny returned, begging Zherka to cut Ana off. Zherka refused, leading to another hour-long argument about their relationship.

Near the end, Ana asked, "If you don't want to be friends with me, why didn't you tell me in privately? Why didn't you just say that?"

"Ana, when somebody blocks you on two different platforms and doesn't respond to any messages, what do you think that means?"

Ana responded, "That's the silent treatment, though. If you didn't want to be friends with me, why didn't you say that?"

"Oh my god, okay." Destiny said, and quickly left.

The following day, Destiny did a follow-up stream to explain his thoughts about Ana.

"I feel a little bit better though, because now that it blew up on Zherka's show, I have so many people messaging me that seem to understand how unhinged she is. I'm not worried anymore now… So, everybody that thought I was being held hostage–you were right. My thought process before was that maybe if we can just be friends and chill, everything will be okay, and she'll stop talking about me publicly… The scary thing is that she started to get into these communities where I had a whole bunch of mutual friends, so for instance a whole bunch of people started DMing me, that were like hey, do you know this Ana person? … I got really scared because then it seems like another Bob7 situation, where it's like, is she about to go and tell every single person that I'm this abusive horrible person? … But now that everything just came out on Zherka's show, I think I'm okay with everything now. Now I can just ignore her, she can spam her shit all day, I don't care, because I think enough people have seen her now in that arena blow up, where they're like "okay, she's got problems. "

A chatter suggested he have her blacklisted from panel shows.

"Do you understand how weird that looks if, like, small girl streamer complains that Destiny manipulated her, now Destiny is contacting other show hosts telling [them] not to let her on? You understand how horrible that looks, right?"

(A month later, he would do this exact thing.)

"The reason why this situation is probably more difficult than anything that I've handled in the past is because most people have a sense of shame, or reputation, or job, or relationships, or anything. There's some fucking Art of War, Sun Tzu fucking quote about this, but the problem is that Ana has nothing to lose. She can go as hard as she wants, as long as she wants, as much as she wants, and she has–there's no repercussions."

The next day, Stardust, a Destiny ally who had brushed off Ana's abuse claims on the Zherka panel, did a stream with Drew, our refreshingly sane psychology student who'd advocated for Ana a year prior.

Drew told Stardust he was concerned that the increased attention on Ana would bring more harassment her way–after the Zherka-hosted screaming match, it was inevitable that the drama vultures would come for their pieces of the Ana pie (and they'd be encouraged to help themselves so long as they were promulgating Destiny's narrative).

Within 22 minutes, Dan joined the call. "I thought I'd come in here to defend the honor of my friend a little bit… I kind of see a victim and an aggressor, I guess you see it in the other way, but I don't really particularly give a shit what the aggressor goes through when they do stuff. I care about the victim, personally."

Drew held fast to his original point: he doesn't want to see Ana harassed.

Dan said, "Actions have consequences to a certain extent, like when someone does something bad, or stupid… and you call someone an abuser in front of everyone else because they stopped talking to you, when that happens, bad things kind of come back to you."

He added, "I didn't say anything for a long time because Steve asked me to, but it kept coming up, and it's like, do we just sit here and get fucked forever with no response?"

By this time, the shitting-on-Ana economy was officially booming. If you search for Ana and Destiny, YouTube will happily take you on an algorithm-guided tour of mocking streams, reaction videos, montages, and video essays. There are entire channels devoted to attacking her.

On September 27, 2021, Destiny gave an Ana update on stream, calling her "the most abusive manipulative motherfucker in the world."

"Ana started tweeting again, because she's always tweeting. She's getting shit on on Twitter a lot, which I guess is good? I hate to say that, but I don't know how to make her stop."

Strategizing, he ruled out asking Twitch for help, and shot down the idea of getting a restraining order.

"I've thought about lifting the gag rule on my subreddit. I don't know, I'll probably keep it, because we need to stop talking about her. But I also need people to know that she's fucking insane, so I don't know what to do."

He declared that Zherka would not be allowed to react to his streams anymore, threatening to file copyright claims on Zherka's channel.

Destiny read aloud a DM he received from a longtime Twitter foe known as Squirrel: You need to stop talking to or about Ana going forward, and remove any mentions of her from your community. The constant back and forth between you two is incredibly unhealthy for her, and there is no possibility of resolution going down that route. I'm sorry, but the lifestyle you have chosen is one where this stuff is liable to happen, and there is no way you can stop it by offering money or blocking or whatever, you just have to deal with it and accept that whatever she does, which btw in the grand scheme of things is incredibly marginal (what, she just talks about you on some shows? Who cares), is the cost that you have to pay for that.

And his reply: You have zero idea what you're talking about, fuck out of my personal life, you are deranged lmao.

(The exchange was posted on Destiny's subreddit with the title "Squirrel girl returns; thinks she’s entitled to comment on Destiny’s personal life." It has 997 upvotes.)

Link | Archive

Destiny continued: "Can you imagine if I was a woman being stalked by a guy and somebody DMed me that? Do you understand the level of fucking insanity that this is? … And now this Squirrel cunt has just tweeted this whole fucking manifesto about how I bring on young girls and groom them and shit on my stream."

He also attacked a streamer named MaddyCakes, after saying they had squashed their beef in a private call he'd "illegally recorded."

"Five days later she's in somebody else's fucking chat saying 'oh Destiny defends misogynists.' Okay? Fuck MaddyCakes, fuck her, fuck everything about her online. Okay, fuck this piece of shit, Jesus Christ. What a fucking loser, holy shit."

On September 28, 2021, a Destiny defender named Ahrelevant debated Zherka about who'd exploited Ana more between Destiny and Zherka.

Destiny jumped on the call to attack Zherka for allowing Ana to shit talk him in front of 3000 viewers.

Another streamer, Haz, justified platforming her critiques of Destiny: "Ana saw fit to vent her frustrations and problems, and one of the reasons she was doing that is 'cause she's never actually had the opportunity to have a fucking large audience to talk to that wasn't in the DGG cult."

Destiny (after demanding that Haz be kicked from the call), countered that Zherka was farming a mentally ill girl for content, and was "probably scared of getting fucking banned because this girl might fucking kill herself after crying on your stream for four hours."

On October 2, 2021, a Destiny ally named Eristocracy did a stream with Ana, who had been a friend of hers.

She cross-examined Ana for two hours with a barrage of questions like, "Do you think you have done some things to Destiny that could be seen as emotionally abusive?"

She told Ana that her "emotional vomiting" in Destiny's DMs was harassment, and explained that Destiny was the real victim and Ana was the abuser.

"When you would reconnect, he would keep that a secret, right? He wouldn't tell people, he would still be acting on stream like you guys hadn't reconnected, and that really hurt you, okay? Totally get that… the thing is, it's also a totally normal behavior for an abuse victim to reconnect and engage with their abuser when they're in vulnerable moments, so who knows what he was going through, and maybe he went back to that person, and that person was you. That doesn't require some super evil malicious intent on your part, but that's a known unhealthy dynamic, where someone keeps going back, and they know that the people who care about them–I'm just guessing, I might be totally wrong with Destiny–but maybe he knew that his viewers who cared about him and his fiancee that cares about him or anyone that they would immediately be like dude, do not go back… That's an abusive situation and there gonna shit on him for it so he keeps that secret… it's a very normal behavior for a victim."

After Ana left Eristocracy's stream, Dan called in, saying, "If Destiny's guilty of anything, it's somehow getting back into a relationship with Ana when he should have fucking known that this was a bad idea, but I can't fault him too too much because he was probably thinking like, okay this is the best way to make this end, if she's somewhat happy."

Eristocracy replied, "I don't think she left him with any choice."

Alisha, another streamer friend of Destiny's, said in a reaction stream, "It's not a relationship… you were just a hit it and quit it, and you're too fucking crazy to handle that. You're too fucking cuckoo for cocoa puffs to understand that you were just a vagina for a day. Get over it. Move on."

On October 2, 2021, Stardust debated Zherka about his claim that Destiny "pumps and dumps" women. Stardust said it was unfair to imply that Destiny doesn't care about his sex partners.

On October 8, 2021, Aba and Preach, a man-focused commentary channel with 1.9 million subscribers, posted a video titled "WHY WOULD YOU CALL ME PRINCESS?" | How crazy women hold men hostage."

The video is monetized and has a million views. (Aba unlisted it at Destiny’s request a year later, around the time I announced I was writing this article.)

On October 26, 2021, Destiny blacklisted Ana from panel shows, stating: "If any of the political panel shows or people are affiliating with Ana in any way, I'm not going on the show for six months."

He read aloud a chat message that said: "I think you might be able to report her to her school for ethics violations. She's psychoanalyzing people publicly."

On November 1, 2021, Destiny posted in his offline chat: Tell Ana if she leaks my sexting I might have some pics to share.

Ana took this as a threat to leak her nudes and would later refer to it as sexual abuse.

On December 12, 2021, Ana accused Destiny of pressuring her to not use a condom when they had sex in 2020. He denied this, and she later admitted it was not true, and that she’d said it out of anger.

On December 26, 2021, Destiny read the winners of his community's yearly awards.

Panel Shitshow of the year: Zherka Royale with Ana

Antagonist of the year: Ana

Ally of the year: Eristocracy

Neurodivergent of the year/Mental Health Awareness Award: Ana

Drama of the year: Bob7 (Ana came in 2nd place)

Reeee of the year: Ana ("Why would you call me princess?")

["Reeee" symbolizes baseless whining or screeching.]

On January 5, 2022, Destiny played video games on stream while listening to Ana rant about him on her own stream, making occasional comments like "she's lying," and "nice."

On January 23, 2022, Dan asked Destiny how things were going with Ana.

Destiny: It's the same as always. She's looping infinitely, there's nothing else to really say.

Dan: You think there's no way out of it for ya, yeah?

Destiny: Not until she kills herself or she kills me.

Dan: Alrighty, okay. Welp, a little dark all of a sudden.

Destiny: What else can happen?

Destiny reads aloud an email from a therapist who explains how they'd use DBT therapy to treat Ana's need to be a victim. (He seemingly later attempted to give her this therapy himself, on stream.)

The same day, Destiny invited Ana to talk to him. The stream was titled: "Confronting Ana about her lies and neverending loops."

Destiny: You're actually insane. How can you not realize this?

Ana: You're driving me crazy, Steven, how can you not realize this?

Ana said she was upset he still calls her a stalker. Destiny told her to drop it.

Destiny: If every time you bring it up on stream, then I respond to it, and then it happens over and over again, why not just leave it?

Destiny said she was having a psychotic break, and that she wasn't really trying to let it go.

Ana: I'm just hoping that people will slowly not think that I'm a stalker, I don't know…

Destiny said, "It's not going to end on your terms," and accused her of faking her breakdowns.

Destiny: You're like, giddy right now to have this conversation, but simultaneously you say I've made you suicidal. How does that work?

Ana: I think you know that it's my defense mechanism.

Destiny: Yeah, it's called borderline personality disorder, I think that's what's going on.

They argued about whether she meets the criteria for borderline personality disorder.

Ana said she has OCD and can't stop herself from re-engaging.

Destiny: I've never in my life interacted with somebody that has the fortitude that you do to carry forward in a negative way that is so self-destructive… You're steadfast in your engagement with your own self-destruction.

Ana: Because I can't let people think lies about me. I can't let it go.

Destiny asked Ana what she works on in therapy. She said she works on her OCD. He then asked if she uses DBT, as it's effective for people with borderline. They both laughed.

Destiny then read the criteria for borderline personality disorder and tried to convince her that she has it.

Destiny: You said that you were feeling suicidal, I think that matches under self-harm.

Ana: Some days I do feel suicidal because of all the harassment and stuff, and I feel like wow, this is just kind of hopeless, holy shit, it's never gonna get better.

Destiny: You've been talking about me for over a year and a half.

Ana: Oh well, haven't you been doing that same thing?

They made yet another agreement to not talk about each other. Destiny said she won't make it 12 hours.

Destiny: I think you've convinced yourself that, because of the type of abuse I've subjected you to, I think that you could try to kill me in real life and I think you would feel justified in doing it. Do you think you have a good enough reason, on everything that I've done to you, do you think you have a good enough reason to try to kill me?

Ana: Fuck no, dude, that's fucking insane.

Destiny: …don't you think if you did kill me, you would still be the victim in the situation? Because I've been mentally abusing you for so long? And you had no other option?

Ana: No. That's insane, dude, what the fuck?

Ana claimed that Destiny wants to hurt her.

Destiny: If I wanted to cause you the maximum amount of pain and suffering, don't you think there's a million other things that somebody like me could do? I'm a pretty resourceful person.

Ana: The only reason you wouldn't do it is because of how it would impact you, not because it's morally wrong.

Destiny: Why do you think it would impact me?

Ana: I don't know, get you banned or something.

Destiny: I can get around things. I'm sponsored by Surfshark dot deals slash Destiny, there's a VPN that I could get where I have three months for free, eighty percent discount, I could login to an IP from anywhere in the world…

Destiny opened up a website about psychosis and argued that she is psychotic and delusional. Ana explained that her thinking is not distorted to the point where it could be called a break from reality.

He asked if she's medicated. She said she isn't. He spent several minutes trying to persuade her to go on antipsychotics or antidepressants.

Ana accused Destiny of trying to make people think she's crazy, and he acknowledged that it was true: "Yeah, I don't want anybody listening to you, and I want people to think you're crazy, because you lie about me, constantly.”

(He was referring to her lie about him pressuring her to use a condom, as well as her evasiveness when confronted about why she'd recently promoted another streamer who hates Destiny.)

At the end of the conversation, Destiny said, "I'll look forward to responding to your clips tomorrow when I see you freaking out again," and reminded her of his ongoing offer to do a group session with her and her therapist.

Afterward, a viewer commented in Destiny's subreddit: ok im getting worried that this is a sex thing and that they're getting turned on by arguing in front of an audience and i'm not sure if i feel comfortable participating anymore. (59 upvotes.)

January 24, 2022: Nicholas DeOrio uploaded a video titled "Destiny's Schizo Stalker Debates 40 Discord Debate Bros"

The video is a recording of a Discord group call where several Destiny fans yell at and about Ana, often mimicking Destiny's arguments and even his speech patterns.

Man 1: Her big claim right now is that people are accusing her of lying and she didn't, but the fact that she's here when she said she wasn't going to talk about this for two days is literally her demonstrating that she's a liar…

Man 2: Can you stop just parroting whatever you heard Destiny say?

Man 3: It's not just parroting what Destiny says, we're here watching it in real time! Last night she said she wasn't going to talk about it! Here she is talking about it! She's lying!

Man 4: Yes, toe the DGG line… Toe the line, toe the line, not a cult, not a cult, not a cult…

[...]

Ana: Why did these people join? Are you guys trying to get stalked by me or something? You gotta line up and take a ticket if you want to get stalked.

Dario: Ana, Ana, can I ask you a question… How do we figure out if somebody is lying, do you know?

Ana: Usually you have to have some sort of evidence of intent, I would think.

Dario: How do we figure out evidence of intent? Have you ever watched a legal show or a trial or something where somebody's on trial where we are trying to establish intent, do you know?

As he pressed her about how she's a liar, Destiny's young fans blurted out random memes.

January 24, 2022: Eristocracy uploaded a video titled "Anafrills Is Starting To SCARE ME!"

Eristocracy drew a diagram of Ana's friendships, alleging a sociopathic pattern of burning bridges and trying to ruin people's reputations amongst their friends.

She watched a clip of Ana saying she won't forget the people who betrayed her, and says that if Ana murders her, this clip will be used in the trial.

January 25, 2022: A Destiny-allied drama streamer named ChudLogic uploaded "Dan JOINS CALL Against Ana! WARNS CHUD Against Platforming Her... ft. WickedSupreme & Dylan Burns"

Dan warned the other orbiters: "If you guys don't call her out when she's saying shit on here you guys are gonna earn the fucking serious ire of Destiny, like times 1,000."

He also said: "I think she's actually the type of person who might try to kill you."

January 26, 2022: DylanBurnsTV uploaded "'Dylan You're Being Abusive!' Confronting AnaVoir About the Destiny Drama (ft. Destiny)"

Dylan confronted Ana about her condom claim, going as far as saying she may have been the one pressuring Destiny (to use a condom), if anything.

Dylan cross-examined her for 20 minutes before Destiny joined the call and took over the questioning.

He asked Ana why they didn't use any condoms when they had sex.

She shot back, "Why do you like being cucked?"

Destiny laughed and feigned ignorance: "How do I like being cucked? What?"

"Do you want to go further?" Ana asked, threatening to out the details of their sexting. (As I mentioned before, Destiny may enjoy being threatened in this manner.)

Destiny urged Ana to stop talking about him in public, saying "At this point, if you continue to engage with it, I'm just making money off of you. I got 150,000 views on my last YouTube video. I am profiting from your suffering–from your agony."

Dylan said, "Legitimately, this would be a good reason for Destiny to just say 'fuck it, I'm gonna talk about it forever, and just make money off of it, just make videos out of it. If I gotta deal with all these accusations, I might as well profit off of it.'"

Ana explained that her streams are compulsive and she is unable to stop doing them.

Dylan said she has a grim future ahead of her if she doesn't.

Destiny said if she can go six months without talking about him, he will take down all of his videos about her and retract his statements about her being a stalker.

February 6, 2022: Destiny attempted what his fans called a "therapy session" with Ana.

While playing video games, Destiny interviewed Ana methodically about her ruminations and coping strategies.

"I think usually the recommendation would be to remove yourself from those [triggering] environments, but I don't think you want to just completely give up and stop streaming because people are saying untrue things about you. That doesn't feel very satisfying, which is understandable. Have you thought about ways to reduce the interaction that you have with people that might say untrue things about you?"

Ana accepted his attempt to help, in spite of the fact that her main complaint is that Destiny has called her an insane stalker multiple times, and has even offered to retract the claim in exchange for her silence.

I don't want to do too much interpretation here, but given the consistent back and forth between them, the on-and-off sexual nature of their relationship, and the lack of any real stalking behaviors, I don't think there is any justification for calling her a stalker.

Destiny explained to the audience that the experience of rumination is so foreign to normal people that they may be unable to comprehend the strength of the obsessive thoughts.

Eating a sandwich, Destiny suggested that Ana try redirecting her attention when she's in a thought spiral rather than fighting it.

He told her to form a support system that understands her OCD, to make a plan to redirect herself when she ruminates, and to talk to her therapist about how to break her rituals.

Before leaving, Ana said "Thank you for your input and your understanding, I appreciate that."

Speaking to chat, Destiny said "I did a lot of reading on OCD over the past few days, and I think I actually take back every single thing I said. I don't know if she's borderline or histrionic at all. I think that a lot of her behavior can actually be explained through OCD, and I think that if I treat it as such, and if she's aware of it, and if we're all aware of it, it might be easier for her to move on through everything. I think it's probably better than just assuming she's like an insane borderline person and blah blah blah."

Within two weeks they were sexting again, and continued to sext intermittently until at least November 2022.

February 24, 2022: I met Ana on an impromptu panel. She was wary of me and I of her. I didn't know anything that had happened, but had been told by my new fans that she was a stalker and that Destiny would be very upset if I platformed her.

I uncharacteristically took this at face value, probably because I was enjoying my newfound fame and money.

April 21, 2022: Destiny invited me to mediate a streamed conversation between him and Ana.

By this point I'd asked him about Ana and had accepted his explanation–they had a fling, she got obsessed with him, and then things simmered down. Having no real knowledge of their relationship, I was about to become complicit in her abuse by allowing Destiny to frame the conflict on his terms.

I joined the stream and asked Ana what she wanted to communicate to Destiny (who was playing video games).

Ana: I feel like he minimizes just how upsetting and stressful and painful this whole experience was for me… "get over it" is sort of like the message.

I asked how she was feeling.

Ana: Just depressed and hopeless, and why do I even bother studying psychology, anyway?

She said the damage to her reputation made her want to drop out of school and disappear from the internet.

I pointed out that Destiny has steeled himself against online harassment, so he's unlikely to acknowledge how this is affecting her. (He once told me that if he let the hate get to him he would have killed himself a long time ago.)

Destiny argued that while their original blowout was traumatic for Ana, from that point on the trauma had been self-inflicted. "The only person that can stop it at this point is her, so I don't know what I can do."

In my infinite charity for Destiny, I said: "You have so much more power than her in this situation that even if you're trying to make a conscious effort to repair it and protect her from yourself and your community, you still almost really can't."

He replied, "Sure, but then what do I do? Because I'm the one that gets attacked, right?"

Surprised at his unwillingness to acknowledge the power differential, I pointed out that "anything negative you say about her is amplified by 10 million compared to what she says about you."

Destiny replied, "But I don't say negative things about her."

Taken further aback, I said, "Even if you're just implying–you're implying negative things about her right now in this conversation."

The mediation started to seem impossible because Destiny wouldn't actually take a position.

Me: Why do you care what she says?

Destiny: Technically I guess I don't, because I can just do this. But for her sake it's probably not healthy, right?

Me: I hate when people call me an abuser. It doesn't affect you?

Destiny: Everybody calls me an abuser, I don't care at this point.

Me: Doesn't that make it worse?

Destiny: No. It is what it is. I don't care.

Me: Okay, so you're saying that your request for her to stop calling you an abuser or stop relitigating this–

Destiny: I think it's bad for her mental health.

A few minutes later, I paraphrased his position: "I'm telling this person [to] stop saying bad stuff about me only for her own good. I'm a saint and I just want what's best for you and what's best for you is to keep my name out of your fucking mouth you lying bitch."

After a pause, Destiny asked his chat: "Where did I go to get that dragon stone?"

Giving up on reaching him, I left them with this: "You're both each other's worst nightmare. Destiny's worst nightmare is that he's going to turn into a sensitive, thin-skinned, ranting, raving, crying woman, and Ana's worst nightmare is that she's going to turn into an abusive predator who abuses her power and steps on people and hurts them."

Some time during the spring, Destiny deleted every Discord DM he has ever sent Ana.

May 26, 2022: Destiny directed his audience to Ana's Kiwifarms thread, effectively doxxing her on his stream.

He did this likely in retaliation for something she'd said about him on stream (explained in their DM exchange below), despite being on relatively good terms and despite having sexted two days prior.

Kiwifarms is a forum where users track and discuss the lives of lolcows (internet figures who provide entertainment in the form of schadenfreude). It is common for forum users to dox their targets and to take sadistic delight in the psychological harm they inflict.

Cheerfully, Destiny said:

"This is my only non-media blackout time… somebody on Kiwifarms has made a thread of Ana. I'm only doing non-media blackout because I know you fuckers are going to be finding it slowly over the next week or two and then talking about in chat and then getting big bans. So if you are obsessed with Ana, and you want to talk about her all the time, you, chatter, you can actually go to Kiwifarms and you can go and post all you want, read all you want, make accounts there… people put a lot of effort into categorizing and archiving everything. There you go, okay?

"All right, boom. Now back to media blackout mode. Oh, the reason why we do the media blackout is because anytime she gets any attention, that will loop and feed into itself for fucking hours or weeks or months or whatever."

Ana's Kiwifarms thread had been created two weeks earlier and had averaged 1.4 posts per day. The day Destiny signal-boosted the thread there were 35 posts, followed by another 99 that week.

Ana's full name and city were doxxed the day Destiny announced the thread, with one user saying, "Kimi just lied on stream saying that her dox is fake and the information is not true. Alright, challenge accepted stalker!" The user posted Ana's family photos and screenshots from her family's social media to prove that she had been successfully doxxed.

Ana DMed Destiny: WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU. YOU JUST OUTED THAT KIWIFARMS THREAD ABOUT ME. DUDE YOU ARE HORRIBLE.

Destiny: I have a media blackout related to your stuff and I wanted everyone to get it out before people were talking about it incessantly over the next two weeks as more and more people discovered it.

You are constantly talking about me on your stream so I think it's fair for me to bring it up, you went as far as to say I was sexually abusive the last time you mentioned me.

Ana: … Because you threatened to leak my nudes, you fucking sociopath. YOU LITERALLY RUINED MY FUCKING LIFE. YOU JUST DOXXED ME ON YOUR STREAM FUCK YOU. … You put me in danger.

Destiny: You're doing it to yourself, and you're going to keep doing it to yourself.

October 24, 2022: Lav, a 24-year-old streamer Destiny had a sexual relationship with, told Destiny on stream that he hadn't done a good job of protecting Ana from harassment.

Destiny immediately threatened to cut ties with her if she kept talking.

I was part of the stream as well, and I agreed with Lav that he was not simply Ana's victim (I still knew very little about their relationship).

Shouting, Destiny said Ana’s abuse of him was as straightforward as somebody being locked in a basement, beaten, and starved.

He went to the bathroom, leaving Lav and me alone to talk in front of the audience.

I said if she wanted to push back against his claim that she was defending his abuser, she should take the position that Ana didn't really lock him in a basement.

The chat was ignited.

WHY TALK ABOUT IT RETARD

DON'T SAY THAT

Destiny are you okay?

manipulators LATCHING onto the thing that can hurt Destiny

VICTIM BLAMING

mrgirl and Lav are narcissist

Destiny fans started multiple posts in my subreddit (the topic of Ana is banned from his) about how I was weaponizing his abuse without understanding the situation.

They commented:

Why are we reopening this can of worms? It feels like other peoples trauma is being hijacked so people can win an argument. If this is something that has to be discussed do it in private. For the love of god!

Link | Archive

I don't care what Steven thinks about it to be honest. This was a line for me. I don't know what exactly I can see from Max to erase the feeling of absolute disgust I have rn.

Link | Archive

Though I had been warned never to mention Ana, I was still surprised by the response, and pointed out that Destiny had fucked a streamer, didn't hold boundaries with her despite calling her a stalker, and didn't hold his boundary with Lav about not wanting to talk about it. I couldn't understand why the fans of this 33-year-old millionaire shit-talker were rushing to hold his boundaries for him.

Two weeks later I found out he'd been sexting her on and off all along. I felt strongly that I should speak out about it, if only to repent for my own complicity, and began working on this project.

November 10, 2022: Destiny found out I was investigating his professional relationships and accusing him of sexual misconduct. He launched a counterattack immediately, calling me a rapist, abuser, manipulator, and narcissist on stream.

Anticipating this, I begged Ana for three hours to give me a screenshot proving he was still sexting her.

She was extremely resistant, as she felt a screenshot would be too much of a violation of Destiny's privacy and she didn't want to jeopardize her ongoing relationship with him. She suggested I go public without it, saying she would provide one if Destiny denied the claim.

Fearing I would be hung out to dry, I recruited my girlfriend and Lav to help me convince her.

Destiny started up the attack stream, titled "I'm Nuclear," and began his campaign to smear and discredit me. I still had permissions in his Discord server, so I jumped onto the stream and said, "You've been sexting consistently with Ana for a year."

He responded, "Me and Ana don't have any problems."

I said everything that he's said about her is a lie, and that she never stalked him.

He countered that she did stalk him, but that stopped a year ago. They've been cool since, and he has no obligation to provide the public with details of his personal sex life.

When I kept arguing, he muted me. So I left.

Ana gave me the screenshot and I tweeted it out. She would later DM Destiny: The only reason I even showed mrgirl that screenshot was because he said it will help people to see that I'm not a stalker… keep this private okay pls because Max scares the shit outta me… he is INSANELY MANIPULATIVE. Like holy shit. The amount of coercion he was putting on me to send him a screenshot of our sexting was insane… it's like nothing I've ever experienced before.

Destiny: Yeah I know. He's got you and Lav twisted into this idea that I'm running around sexually manipulating and abusing people on my stream lol.

The next day, Ana DMed me: I'm not happy that Lav broke our privacy agreement. I'm also sorry that my behavior has been two-faced. I'm scared that you're going to come after me now like Lav has

I replied: No. I knew you would go back to him. You're trapped just like I am. I've been struggling to get out of his grip for a year. I'm just like you and I see that now. I've been crying all day.

Two days later, on November 13, Destiny reacted live to ChudLogic's panel discussing Lav’s abuse claims against Destiny. Ana was in ChudLogic’s audience chat, asking to be let on so she could speak for herself.

Destiny, laughing, said, “Dude, Ana is probably mentally completely getting fucking destroyed right now!" A moment later, he said, “That’s not funny, I shouldn’t.”

As he listened to Lav criticize his relationship with Ana, Destiny said, “[…] me and her are cool, everything is fine or whatever, but just to be clear, this idea that she's some slave of mine is unreal. Lav is totally inventing this idea.”

But moments later, an audience member sent Destiny a screenshot of Ana’s messages in ChudLogic’s chat. “Oh, Ana's in Chud's chat saying that now? ‘He weaponized that powerful platform against me to the point where I was held hostage to him. I was literally—okay, well, nevermind, maybe she's saying it now I guess.”

Over the nearly three years since their first conversation, Destiny has mentioned Ana in more than 150 streams.

Sam

In early 2021, Destiny funded and organized door-to-door canvassing for the mayoral campaign of political novice Mark Gudgel in Omaha. The two also did promotional media appearances together.

As the primary election neared, the communities of rival political streamers (and former proteges of Destiny's) criticized Destiny’s involvement in the campaign, noting in particular his 2020 comment that: "The rioting needs to fucking stop, and if that means white, redneck fucking militia dudes out there mowing down dipshit protesters that think that they can torch buildings at 10 p.m., then at this point they have my fucking blessing."

On March 2, 2021, Destiny invited an Omaha resident (who had criticized him on Twitter) for a chat on stream.

Sam, a non-binary 21-year-old, was a fan of Destiny's rival streamers (Hasan and Vaush), and thought Destiny was poisonous for Gudgel's campaign.

Sam began, "I'm concerned. I'm from Omaha. I live in Omaha. And I'm concerned with a potential mayor candidate campaigning with someone like you. Who has said the n-word and said the f-slur online, and–"

Destiny: Why would you focus so much on me and not on Mark's actual policy positions or what Mark believes? Like you realize I'm not part of Mark's campaign, I'm not running for office.

Sam: But you're definitely bringing over your supporters and your fans–

Destiny: Do you think that you should be vetting and denying help if you don't agree one hundred percent ideologically with every single canvasser or somebody that comes to volunteer?

Sam fought valiantly but was unable to keep up with Destiny's confusing reframing of the argument. Sam also described feeling nervous and overwhelmed as Destiny got angrier and angrier.

Destiny accused Sam of participating in disgusting party politics, saying "You actually don't know anything about [Gudgel]."

Sam said, "I do know about him… I work at Omaha North High School, dude. I work there. I'm doxxing myself, dude."

At the time, Mark was an English teacher at Omaha North.

While they spoke, Destiny's fans scoured Sam's twitter. They found a couple racial and homophobic jokes, which Destiny read aloud and displayed on screen.

In one, Sam had said "Very easy to spot the Jew in the flood of Christmas tweets" while teasing a friend at age 15.

Sam: It's weird that you're that obsessed with me that you're going that far.

Destiny: Okay. Hey, these are all on your timeline, it's easy to search on your timeline and look for things.

Sam: Don't you think that's weird? That's a close friend of mine that you're–

Destiny: Oh, so you think it's okay to make racist jokes if it's to close friends?

The debate turned increasingly ugly, with Destiny giving zero credit to the idea that associating with him could possibly be bad for a political candidate.

The conversation lasted 90 minutes, with Sam falling silent for 45 minutes after calling in an ally to debate Destiny.

When the ally left, Sam was drunk (and said so) and noticeably slurring.

Having lost his patience with what he perceived as leftist cancel culture, Destiny told Sam, "You only exist to hurt other people."

As Destiny began to wrap up the conversation, Sam said: "Pull your dick out and say you're Hasan's baby boy."

Destiny: First of all, how do you even know that I have a penis? That's kind of a weird assumption.

Sam: Pull your dick out, wave it around, and say you're Hasan's baby boy.

They fought over who has more of a right to claim Omaha as their city (Destiny lived in Los Angeles at the time but his son was being raised in Omaha).

Eventually Sam, increasingly incoherent, just said "Bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh" and laughed drunkenly.

Destiny gave his closing insult: "I hope the relentless negativity continues to play well for you when you're ultra depressed, when you cry in the middle of the night, when you realize that you are a sad, pathetic person and all you can do is to contribute negativity online…"

Sam interrupted repeatedly, saying: "Fuck you! Fuck you! I'm here, bitch! I'm here, bitch, you aren't!"

Destiny muted Sam, who immediately left the call.

Destiny lamented the fact that, despite having broadcast thousands of hours of himself talking, he is still "held up to such a standard that if I've ever said anything or done anything… I get crucified for it… It really disappoints me that I have to constantly defend and relive and deal with the worst things I've said throughout the history of my existence."

The following morning, the University of Nebraska at Omaha’s student paper, The Gateway, printed a highly critical story about Destiny's involvement with Gudgel's campaign. In addition to referencing Destiny's controversies, the author also included accounts from locals who described Destiny's canvassers as aggressive and pushy.

Gudgel told Destiny he would have to cut ties with him. Hours before the campaign made the official announcement, Destiny wrote in his public chat:

I think Mark‘s suspending his campaign.

(Note: He didn’t suspend his campaign, but he did end up losing in the primary.)

He’s getting threats and shit to his family, he says that the stress etc is destroying him. … It’s not far lefties, it’s idpol obsessed white people atm… people obsessed with supporting “black women.”

… Mark wants to remain relentlessly positive, but now that it’s over I’m going to write something more scathing.

At 10 a.m., before Gudgel’s announcement, Destiny posted an essay titled: Incredibly disappointed at the lack of journalistic integrity at UNO's "The Gateway" and writer Hannah Michelle Bussa

Link | Archive

The Reddit post would receive 6,500 upvotes, making it the most popular r/Destiny post to this day.

Destiny accused Bussa of intentionally misrepresenting his views on BLM, downplaying his progressive activism, and printing lies about him told by supporters of rival candidates. Additionally, he posted screenshots of the author’s personal social media, pointing to a supposed conflict of interest because she followed a rival campaign's manager on Facebook.

The Gateway's article's comment section was swarmed by Destiny's fans. The tweet announcing the article received 28 likes, while one of the many replies accusing Bussa of bias (with the screenshot of her Facebook account) received 576.

That afternoon Destiny would do a stream titled "Debunking The Hit Piece And Addressing The Attacks - Mini-Manifesto," but he had one other order of business to attend to first.

Sam.

Destiny consulted his chat:

Destiny: Someone in here said the drunk guy or whatever worked with kids? does anyone have a clip to that + want to clip me the sexual harassment comments he made about me "taking my dick out"? I'll forward to his employment.

A fan: do you really think those people you talked to caused the threats to Mark's employment? otherwise this is really bad?

Destiny: Fuck off you concern trolling inbred dipshit, if people want to be held accountable, then let's hold people accountable.

He sent the following email to Omaha North High School:

Hello! Sam ****** claimed to be employed by your school. I'm not sure if he was truthful or not, but if he is, I'd like to make you aware of some strange sexually aggressive comments he was making online yesterday. https://streamable.com/******

He'd also made a number of tweets containing anti-semitic humor in them, though I believe he's privated his account and probably deleted them by now.

Sorry for any trouble this causes, thanks for taking the time to read.

Steven

Darius

In July of 2022, Melina caught Destiny having an affair. Both her and Destiny told multiple people the details of the affair, making it an open secret in Destiny's community, but a secret I've nonetheless agreed to keep.

At the time, Melina was extremely distraught and unstable, and sought emotional support from Darius, a small 25-year-old streamer in Destiny's community who was a close friend and previous sex partner of Melina's.

After confiding in Darius about her heartbreak and suicidal feelings, Melina invited him to move to Austin with her. She would get a break from Destiny, and Darius would get a break from his own troubled relationship with his 23-year-old then-fiancée, Sushi.

Darius had been struggling financially, so Melina flew him out and paid for the Airbnb. According to Darius, she had also floated the idea of renting an apartment where he could live with her in exchange for doing camera work for her content creation.

Darius claims that on the first night, while sharing a bed, Melina wore lingerie to sleep and pressed herself against him. (Melina would later vehemently deny this occurred.)

Darius had brought two MDMA doses to Austin, which he and Melina had planned to take together, but he first warned her that he might become infatuated with her once the drug took effect.

Melina found this disclosure off-putting, and abruptly told him to leave Austin. Darius flew home the same day.

Upon returning, he found out he was being fired from his job. Now it was his turn to confess suicidal feelings to Melina, but she replied only to ask him about the bag of shrooms he'd left in Austin, ignoring his request for help.

At one point, Darius wanted to stab himself, but he kept changing his mind by the time he'd retrieved a knife. He started keeping knives within arm's reach. Sushi urged him to go to the hospital but he refused.

On top of everything else, Darius's new puppy, sick with parvovirus, needed an emergency surgery that would cost up to $10,000.

Paying for it was out of the question, so Darius started a GoFundMe and asked for donations on Twitter:

Hey guys I’m very saddened to announce that my dog needs an emergency surgery today or she won’t make it. […] If any oilers out there see this and have the empathy and compassion to donate I would really really appreciate it, I’ll get your name tattoo’d or do anything you want (within reason), I am really at my last breaking point.

Link | Archive

On August 26, 2022, Trainwrecks, a successful and famously generous Twitch streamer, gave Darius the $10,000.

Darius tweeted:

I could fucking cry bro thank you @Trainwreckstv and everyone who donated to help. I lost so ducking [sic] much this month and if I lost her I legit don’t know what headspace I’d be in. 5 minutes away from euthanizing her at the vet and trainwrecks comes out of nowhere. I owe u all.

Link | Archive

14 minutes later, Melina posted in Destiny's public chat:

That dog will get sick again.

I could call him a fucking moron and save his money for other shot [sic] he has issues with in life that he fucked up. And not on a fucking dog.

Spending 10 k on a 5 months old dog when you’re not financially stable is something someone has to say no to. Maybe comes off as a dick. But it’s the truth.

August 27, 2022: Talking to his audience, Destiny announced that he would not publicly discuss Melina's comments about the dog, "because people are way too fucking emotionally attached to fucking animals."

(In 2017, Destiny posted a video called "My Early Life Was Really Bizarre" in which he described his grandmother repeatedly buying and euthanizing dogs for no reason, two of whom he remembers being particularly attached to. To Destiny's great sadness, his father was unable to convince his grandmother to spare them.)

30 seconds after Destiny's refusal to discuss the issue publicly, Darius joined the stream. He angrily told Destiny that he was not upset by Melina's lack of sentimentality about the dog, but by her coldness toward him. As Darius made his case, Taybor Pepper, an NFL player and fan of Destiny's, joined the conversation to mock him and blame him for the dog's sickness, saying "dogs get adopted from shelters all the time without contracting parvo you fucking idiot… you're retarded, you're retarded."

Destiny laughed with glee as Pepper demeaned Darius, who became increasingly agitated.

"I think the worst thing I did here was try, and then you guys are like shitting on me for it. Are you telling me I should have just fucking sat there and kicked the bucket and just let myself fucking die? It's like I don't know what the fuck you want me to do."

Taybor smugly asked, "Did you get pet insurance after she contracted parvo from the kennel?"

Destiny laughed again as Darius gave a stumbling explanation about how Sushi's employer provided insurance had not yet kicked in.

Egged on by Destiny's mirth, Taybor gave a rundown of Darius's past financial failures while the audience mocked him.

Melina typed in the audience chat: I didn't fuck him or date so he flew home from Austin mad omegalul

Darius yelled: "Kill yourself you stupid sped, unironically you should have killed yourself the day you had the chance!" And a minutes later: "I have done enough to not give a fuck, and honestly–"

Taybor, worried he was about to out the identity of Destiny's mistress, cut him off: "Slow down, slow down, take a couple breaths. Let's all just–let's calm down, chill."

Destiny: I'm just trying not to get caught in the crossfire right now.

Taybor: Let's not say stuff–

Destiny: If you want to fight with Melina, that's cool.

Darius: I'm not gonna leak any of your stuff.

Destiny: Okay, nevermind then, go off, king.

Melina joined the call and traded jabs with Darius, until he eventually calmed down and said, sadly, "What I expect from you is to like care at all."

Melina replied that she didn't want to interact with him anymore, explaining: "Most of your messages really has been, 'I'm gonna go kill myself,' and for real, I've had friends call me about you, several friends told me that you're about to go kill yourself. I did not want to be involved or interact."

Darius said, "I thought the level of care was reciprocated after I sat there with you for multiple months, days, and weeks about fucking this whole shit with Destiny and you talking about even killing yourself.

Destiny laughed at this and said, "Got a lot of suicidal people on the call right now. Everybody needs to chill out a little bit."

He then asked for a timeline of the events of the weekend in Austin and moderated as they argued about who had made a sexual advance on whom, with Dan tossing in bombs such as, "He said verbatim there was a lot of crotch rubbing going on," and, "The ass to crotch pipeline [...] that is highly sexual stuff."

When Darius read aloud a DM in which he'd asked Melina if she wanted him to leave Austin or stay, Destiny got tired of playing with his food and went in for the kill.

"Okay, can I, real quick, can I give you what it sounds like and what probably Melina's read is on this? And I could be wrong. Just, this is like my general feeling–and I'm being fair. I've heard Melina's side of the story more than your side. So obviously I have more information on that side, which may or may not be incorrect. Doesn't that message sound a little bit like you're kind of asking her, is there like a chance that something is going to happen here? Or should I just leave and go back to Sushi?"

Projecting nuanced curiosity, Destiny laid out what I believe was the real reason for the stream: like Bob7 before him, Destiny thought Darius had tried to destroy his marriage.

Dan urged Sushi to join the call, and she did.

She was furious with Melina for mocking Darius while he was in need of help. Sushi and Melina had also previously had a sexual relationship, making things even more complicated.

Sushi reprimanded her: "The polite thing to do would be to message him and say, 'I don't think we're friends anymore.' That's just a nice thing to do. If you're going to start shitting on someone publicly [...] you should just reach out to him first. That would be the polite thing to do in that instance.

Melina replied, "Yeah, I don't care that much."

Sushi: I don't feel the need to do this type of shit publicly, the only reason I'm here now is because I feel like Melina is trying to act a certain way that isn't true to her character. And she's trying to act like 'Oh, I'm just so–I don't know what's going on, blah, blah,' but behind the scenes, she's such a fucking bitch.

Destiny: Sure, then that's fair, and you've said your piece. Okay–

Darius: Bye guys. Fuck you, Melina.

Taybor: Have fun with that, Darius.

Destiny had ushered Darius out so that he and the other two millionaires–Dan and Taybor–could host a dating advice show.

(As of this writing, the dog is healthy and happy.)

Merrick

On August 25, 2022, Merrick Deville (a previous sexual partner of Destiny's) quote-tweeted a video of Destiny jokingly asking Nick Fuentes, "Does Israel count as right-wing terrorism?" Fuentes had come over to Destiny's house for an in-person stream that disturbed many, including me.

Merrick captioned the video "I'm owed so many apologies lol," in reference to a previous argument she'd had about whether Destiny was truly becoming friendly with Fuentes.

Two weeks earlier, Merrick had attempted suicide. While she was in the hospital, and without her knowledge, her partner created a GoFundMe to cover the $4000 bill for her weeklong stay.

Well aware of this, Destiny said the following in response to Merrick's tweet about Fuentes:

There's something profoundly sad not just with victims of unhealthy obsessions, but with the people around them who can't seem to convince them to just put down Twitter. The number of people I've encountered who are suicidal who then hop right back into the most toxic parts of the internet essentially begging for more toxicity absolutely astounds me.

I wonder if they're as much a burden to the people around them as they seem? Do they even have the wherewithal to realize how fucked of a situation they're putting everyone around them in? Do they care?

Or maybe they just need another 4k, eh, who knows, good luck.

Two days later, a streamer named Brys mockingly brought up the situation on a panel with Destiny, NotSoErudite, and SocDarling, who was friendly with Merrick.

Brys: You made a pretty good point that when somebody has a–I think it was like a recent suicide attempt, maybe they should take a break or hiatus from social media.

Socdarling: Maybe we should take a different topic. I feel that's still a little far off from our topic at hand.

Brys: Well, I mean, I think it's still pretty reasonable, because people will usually dump everything that's going on in their life and start like a GoFundMe–

Destiny started to laugh.

Brys: –and be like, "Oh my god, all this bad shit is happening to me. I need to start a GoFundMe and all this stuff." So I still think that it's kind of linked, it's kind of relevant.

Destiny [laughing] Hold on, do you know the backdrop for any of this?

NotSoErudite started to laugh.

Brys: Vaguely but not really.

Destiny: Okay. Go ahead, take it away Erudite, what do you think about that?

NotSoErudite [laughing]: What, no! Do not [inaudible] to me–

Destiny: Okay, Socdarling, go. Me and Kai have dominated the conversation, one of you need to fucking contribute, okay?

NotSoErudite: What the fuck do you mean, I've been fighting with Kai about evolution.

Socdarling: I'm shy.

Destiny: Okay, well, that's cool. So it's like a typical two parent household where the women do none of the work. Gotcha.

NotSoErudite: Yeah, gotta bring in the money for us.

Socdarling: I, for one, support gay dads.

NotSoErudite: How do you feel about people using their trauma to raise money on a GoFundMe?

Destiny: True.

Socdarling: Why is it on me?

Destiny: Well, I said thumbs down. Kyla says thumbs down. What do you say?

Socdarling: What do you say?

Destiny: I said thumbs down. Not good.

Socdarling: Um, I don't know. I think that, well, I think people–if someone needs the money, they should be able to raise money.

Destiny: That wasn't the question. Should people trauma dump and then raise money off of it on Twitter? That's the question.

Socdarling: I don't think you should trauma dump, I think if–I don't think you should trauma dump, no.

Denims and Littleefox

In 2019, Denims and Littleefox were both small female streamers in their early 20s who had sexting relationships with Destiny and were featured on his streams. Littleefox also had sex with both Destiny and Melina in September 2019.

After TwitchCon, Denims had planned to stay in Destiny and Melina's apartment in Los Angeles. Destiny gave Denims instructions for letting herself and a friend from Destiny’s community into the apartment, which he always left unlocked.

Denims and her friend had sex on Destiny and Melina's bed. Upon arriving, Destiny became concerned that Denims's friend had spent time around his unlocked computer, and Melina was upset they had sex on her bed, so they were no longer welcome to stay in Destiny's apartment.

Later in the week, Littleefox let herself into Destiny's apartment to charge her phone early in the morning. She had left her charger there the previous day, and everyone inside the apartment was asleep.

After seeing Denims acknowledge on her stream that things were generally tense, Destiny became worried that either Denims or Littleefox would accuse him of sexual coercion.

On October 3, 2019, in a stream that would be uploaded with the title "Destiny Addresses the TwitchCon 2019 Drama," Destiny painted the women as creepy and entitled.

Destiny: If I'm going to be completely one million percent honest, I think I literally had one orgasm the entire weekend, okay. So I know that a lot of people are under the impression I was literally fucking my way through like twenty million people–I actually didn't, like it was pretty crazy, I was busy like a motherfucker over that whole weekend.

He went on to describe Littleefox as being "really anxious and needing a babysitter" (she had never been to a crowded convention before), which caused tension between Melina and Littleefox.

A chatter wrote, "Dude, what the fuck, Destiny? I'd be so fucking pissed."

Destiny: I think I let people like, get away with a little bit too much. But like, I'm pretty chill with most things. But like, yeah, I mean, like, that's like, it's pretty…

He trailed off.

Destiny: I'm a little annoyed because I don't know what they've been doing in my apartment for a day. I don't want to–whatever. I talked to Denims multiple times about this. And she gave a lot of different stories to a lot of different people. It was pretty obvious that she was lying about a lot of stuff. So like, when somebody starts lying, it's really hard to tell where the lies stop and the truth begins. So it's like I couldn't do anything.

Destiny described waking up one morning to messages from Littleefox saying that she was going to let herself in to get her charger since no one seemed to be awake.

Destiny: [Littleefox] was typing in my chat about Katerino sleeping on my couch. She was like, "Oh, wow, I believe Katerino sleeps with her glasses on and stuff. And I was like, oh god, it's just a bad–it's just scary as fuck, okay? It's real fucking scary. [...] Oh, and apparently, when [Littleefox] was here, she said that Denims was sleeping here, too, so she must have come back at some point that night, was sleeping, and then also left. I don't know. I don't know who the fuck is coming in out of my fucking apartment.

With a text-to-speech chat donation, someone asked "Why didn't you close the door after the first time it happened?" Destiny paused, heard the question, and ignored it.

He continued his story, claiming that Denims and Littleefox showed up at his apartment unannounced yet again.

Littleefox was watching the stream live, and protested Destiny's version of events, typing in the audience chat: We said we wanted to fucking talk because of the drama. You're making it a bigger deal. You knew we were coming.

She was met with insults from the other viewers:

leech

bad person

begone THOT

you're a child

Other chatters were perplexed as to why Destiny was doing the stream at all. He explained that it was necessary in order to preempt potential accusations of sexual coercion.

Destiny: Well, because now it kind of looks like–so what I don't want people to think is, I don't want people to think that like, 'Oh, I brought Denims and [Littleefox] here to fuck, and since they both turned me down, I kicked them out of my apartment.' I don't want it to sound like some crazy shit like that. Or like I brought somebody and they were uncomfortable with something 'cause I tried to rape them, and now I'm kicking them out because they didn't cave into it or whatever."

[...]

Destiny: Yeah, I don't know what else, I think that giving any more details makes the other parties look really really really really really bad. So I don't know, it's not like I'm leaving things out that make me look bad or something, I don't think. [...] Okay, I think we're done with this. Are we good? So that's why they're not here now. I don't know what stream is gonna look like in the future for both of these people. I don't know, maybe we'll chill and who cares in the future–or maybe I'll be ass mad for a while, maybe, I don't know. I don't know but now I guess that's more or less–pretty much everything is out.

He read a chat message aloud:

Destiny: "Are you gonna learn from this mistake or keep fucking mentally handicapped women?" [...] Listen, all the older women are either nonexistent or unavailable emotionally, or they're in a relationship.

He read another message:

Destiny: "Destiny, you can't say it makes them look so bad and then claim the high road by not saying it. You just made them look just as bad as if you said it." No, I'm not. Trust me. Trust me on that one.

WhiteNervosa

WhiteNervosa, a small trans streamer, started talking to Destiny in November 2017 when she was 25 and he was 28. Between then and July 2018, they exchanged over 2,000 DMs.

WhiteNervosa did not appear on camera for her streams, and did not tell Destiny she was trans. When he asked her height, and she told him she was 5'11, he replied: Were any of the guys you dated smaller than you? 5'11" is pretty damn tall.

I am of the opinion that, for most of their DMing relationship, Destiny did not know WhiteNervosa was trans.

Early on, they exchanged dozens of DMs every day.

Their first discussion of sex was November 30, the day after they started chatting regularly. Destiny explained his needs for sexual compatibility in a relationship.

On December 2, Destiny asked for a picture of WhiteNervosa's tattoo. WhiteNervosa obliged him with a close-up of her shoulder.

On December 22, WhiteNervosa asked to be added to Destiny's autohost list on Twitch. (Hosting a stream means that their stream will appear in place of yours while you're offline–a host from Destiny was a big help to a small Twitch streamer.)

Over the next several months, WhiteNervosa would occasionally appear on Destiny's stream for various debates and discussions.

January 7, 2018:

WhiteNervosa: I'm flattered I'm apparently apart of the official harem now, but my two qualities are "Who?" tier (which is understandable) and then for people who like me "Functioning sociopath, you have a stable job and 2 friends but you find yourself fantasizing about torturing animals." O_O.. so uh.. lets play PUBG sometime again in the morning buddy.. or debate.. or CSGO 😉

Destiny: Yeah boiii [...] You're the smartest harem member so far so good job

They spoke regularly about Destiny hosting WhiteNervosa's channel, including this exchange on March 17:

WhiteNervosa: MUH TIMESLOT! When're you done strimming?

Destiny: I have no idea but I'll hit you up with that FAT, THROBBING HOST when I finish

Destiny's engagement dropped off in the spring–he no longer initiated conversations, and replied to WhiteNervosa once every week or two.

On July 10, WhiteNervosa finally showed her face on stream.

Despite many overtures from WhiteNervosa, Destiny was done talking to her, and would only ever send her 10 more messages. (One of the messages was him refusing to let WhiteNervosa join his Minecraft server.) Their last DMs were in April 2019.

I included this story to show that, for whatever reason, Destiny's career assistance dropped off along with his sexual interest in WhiteNervosa.

Vaush

Now a sizable leftist streamer, Vaush started out as a Destiny fan in the early 2010s and came up through Destiny's community. In 2019, Vaush was accused of sexually harassing a woman in Destiny's community over DMs (he would later own this and apologize). At the time of the accusation, Vaush had been gaining popularity in Destiny's community for being further left-leaning than Destiny (the schism would eventually lead to Destiny banning all leftists–those who were more loyal to Vaush than himself).

Destiny read the DMs between Vaush and the victim aloud on stream, but concealed the identity of the accused harasser by displaying redacted screenshots. By the end, many in the audience had figured it out, and Destiny gleefully revealed that it was Vaush. Within minutes, Vaush joined the stream in a panic, asking "what the fuck is going on?" Destiny laughed again and banned him.

Their relationship survived until 2020, when Destiny said in a streamed debate about Kyle Rittenhouse, "The rioting needs to fucking stop, and if that means like, white, redneck fucking militia dudes out there mowing down dipshit protesters that think that they can torch buildings at 10 p.m., then at this point they have my fucking blessing, because holy shit, this fucking shit needs to stop, and needed to stop a long time ago."

Vaush's roommate and his partner at the time called for Destiny to be deplatformed for the comments. Twitch didn't ban Destiny, but they did departner him, leading to a significant loss in his income.

On September 12, 2020, Destiny said, 'I'm gonna be a little bit more forceful here I guess, since I usually let people walk all over me. I can't imagine like how much [of] a spineless disingenuous cuck you have to be to have a roommate and a girlfriend that are walking around talking about spam reporting me when like I've given you an audience, I've given you a platform, you literally like ripped my whole website code off to start your shit, and your entire community witch hunts the fuck out of me, and you just stand by like 'Oh well, I told them to stop.' I don't care."

Assorted Stories

Anonymous: A severely mentally ill woman sexted with Destiny. When she said something that unnerved him, he called her out by name on stream and blocked her. She asked to not be named and for details to be vague out of fear of retaliation.

Two anonymous female streamers: One struggling with mental health issues, the other not, both sexted with Destiny and were occasionally featured on his stream.

BadBunny: A female streamer who had a sexual relationship with Destiny. "I hate hearing his name now. It just riles up so many negative feelings for me, so many negative feelings [...] of humiliation, of just defending him for so long then just having him consistently never defend me and just shit on me. [...] There's a lot of Destiny viewers that will just sit in my chat, and just wait to clip things I say to report to him. And then he'll watch them on stream and he'll chuckle and say something rude about me, and then he'll move on and then they'll go have a fucking field day, and then proceed to rant about me about how I'm a horrible toxic individual on the subreddit. Those posts don't get deleted because freedom of speech, but then Trainwrecks posts get deleted.”

Trihex: A former friend and podcast cohost of Destiny’s. Their relationship fell apart when Trihex, who is black, confronted Destiny on stream about his defense of using the n-word in certain contexts. When Destiny responded coldly, Trihex cried.

In an October 2019 Reddit post lashing out at several of his enemies, Destiny wrote:

[...] Now what in the flying fuck changed so hard that you are literally so upset about my "usage of the n word with a hard r", that you literally just defended a few weeks before IN FRONT OF ME, ON A PODCAST, AGAINST SOMEONE SAYING IT WAS "dehumanizing"??? How did you go from verbalizing my arguments with crystal clear accuracy to crying on our podcast to make me look like the literal fucking hellspawn of the earth? Why are you complaining that you have to take a break from streaming because you're so upset with an incredibly public position that I've held and defended for years, even in front of you?

Why the fuck is your girlfriend dogpiling on to tweet at me now, too?

Why are you acting so emotional about this and claiming you cleaned up and changed your act completely when you still use ableist slurs like "retarded" publicly in my and other Twitch chats? Or threatening to make Jew jokes? Or literally QUOTING UNCLE RUCKUS BY SAYING "NIGLET" which is EXACTLY the context I'm arguing for?

It's amazing to me that all it took were a few USSR larpers whispering in your ear to turn you against me, and then you have the nerve to confront me publicly and ask how our friendship means so little to ME? When you 180'd your positions from LESS THAN A MONTH AGO because a group of lefty dumbfucks are telling you that I'm the devil incarnate? And then you expect me to empathize with your position while you have the entire internet rallied behind you with LSF threads hitting the front page of reddit shitting on me and every aspect of my personality?

Fuck that, I've cancelled the podcast, I don't care if you want to continue or not, what kind of fucked up background do you think I come from where I'd ever deal with such a dysfunctional, one-sided relationship.

(3.9k upvotes)

Link | Archive

A subreddit post about the incident, titled "Its actually so fucking sad that trihex is looking like this the entire show and destiny still jokes about the n-word joke drama,” was removed by mods after receiving 1,300 upvotes.

Deleted | Archive

Two comments on the deleted post:

That is frequently how it goes. I am black and grew up around a lot of white people and had the N word tossed around lot. I had nobody to back me up when I got angry and the social pressure to just "be cool" was so high that it usually resulted in both of us apologizing even though I didn't do anything wrong. Being an angry black dude that calls people out for being racist is a very quick way to be alienated from many social circles. It really fucks with your head.

(247 upvotes)

Yup. I'm black and that's always been my experience too. White people are able to enter black spaces at will and justify their use of words that have historically been used to dehumanize us in any way they see fit. We're never allowed to enter white spaces and do the same or call them on it, or we're just being angry, unreasonable n words.

(49 upvotes) Lav

In November 2021, Lav was a 23-year-old musician, TikToker, adult content creator, and aspiring streamer. She introduced herself to Destiny via Instagram DM, telling him she liked the sound of his voice and that she'd discovered him through his videos about Ana.

He replied: Oh well Jesus ahahaha

I do politics and games and shit that's not my normal content

They kept in touch, but Lav didn't start streaming in earnest until June 2022, when she called into my stream to talk about relationships. She also told me she was retiring from OnlyFans.

I told her she was manipulative and that I didn't believe she would really retire. She was taken aback, but I went even further, telling her I would not allow her on my stream unless she stuck with her plan to retire from sex work, as I believe she was self-harming and didn't want to help her advertise it. (After a few contentious months we became good friends, with me in a mentor role.)

June 16, 2022: Destiny DMed Lav that he was masturbating and requested that she send a sexual photo, which she did.

That evening, Lav asked: Are you gonna stream with me and give me clout

Destiny replied: lmao

If we've got something to talk about, sure thing bucko

August 2, 2022: Lav and Destiny talked about OnlyFans on stream.

Afterward, she DMed him: I really liked talking with you 😈

Destiny: THANKS

now I'll feel less bad bugging you for feet pics

Lav: Hahahah 🤝

Pleasure doing business

Destiny: based

welcome to the orbiter club

Lav: ❤️

August 6, 2022: Destiny told Lav that he'd cheated on Melina and had fallen in love with the other woman, but she'd recently ended their affair.

Destiny: It was just a ""relationship"" thing that was massively escalating over like 5 months and I was ready to end marriage over thing

Lav: Jeez, I hope you and Melina take atleast [sic] a break. It would be so hard to pick up where you left off.

Resentment building

For both of you

Destiny: it's okies the Melina stuff is fine I can pick that up again

just have to recover from the last girl person

Lav: [...] It is not fine ! Are you both sociopaths?

This does something to a relationship!

The recovering process involves space

Destiny: she doesn't know the extent to which I was obsessed with this other girl lol

Lav asked who it was to satisfy her curiosity, even offering to tell him a secret of hers as collateral. Destiny agreed, and over a voice call he disclosed the identity of his mistress and sought emotional support about the situation.

In return, Lav told him that Hasan Piker had sex with her friend when she was close to 18 and he was in his mid-twenties.

(Lav has since given contradictory statements about her friend's age at the time they had sex, wavering between 17 and 18. In November 2022, Hasan addressed the allegation directly and said that she was 19 at the time. The woman in question has not come forward, and Lav has not produced any evidence to substantiate her claims.)

August 8, 2022: Destiny, ChudLogic, and I streamed a discussion about the ethics of OnlyFans recruiting young women with the promise of easy money. This was before I understood the sadistic nature of Destiny's content, so I was surprised when ChudLogic brought on Lav (who had become vehemently anti-OnlyFans) and Madame Genevieve (an OnlyFans creator) to argue the topic on a very personal level.

I was also unaware that Destiny was sexting both Lav and Madame Genevieve at the time.

ChudLogic had ostensibly conjured up the panel out of indignance about the exploitation of 18-year-old girls (a sentiment I share), but once the others joined he fell back to a role of memeing and throwing pipe bombs from the sidelines.

I'd also recently banned Lav from my Discord server because I felt she was a danger to herself and others, which led to us having an affectionate but heated argument about whether I was her dad. By communicating intimately with her in such a caustic environment, I inadvertently opened her up to a deeper level of ridicule from the audience.

I don't mean to paint myself as innocently naive. I'd been streaming with Destiny and his orbiters for seven months by then, and I should have understood what was happening, but it would be another two months before I ran out of excuses for Destiny.

After the four-hour stream, two anti-Lav posts appeared on Destiny's subreddit: "Lav thinks it’s wrong for adults to do only fans but it’s okay for minors to participate in cuties?" (50 upvotes), and "Why Does Anybody Take Lav Seriously?" (249 upvotes).

1: Link | Archive

2: Link | OP | Archive

The comments were harsh:

The lines she draws between what's right and what's wrong are very conveniently just one step beyond where she's at, she's a massive hypocrite, and often a condescending asshole to anyone who disagrees with her. But boy does she know how to ignite a panel.

(78 upvotes)

Lav is an actual psyop. The absolutely insane and inconsistent views, the rich husband, the 300k a year off Onlyfans.

(171 upvotes)

I think she's grifting. She was talking about her experience cutting the other day like it wasn't a big deal. Then today she complains how much it hurt her that people didn't care she wanted to slow down on porn because of her self harm relapsing.

(18 upvotes)

Lav and Destiny discussed it over DMs:

Lav: Your Reddit is…..

Self harm

Destiny: don't go there

LOL

Lav: Currently slitting in the bath bleeding out

He replied 21 hours later with an unrelated meme.

August 11, 2022: Destiny DMed Lav.

Destiny: Oy hey, just because you've been on stream more and what not, I know we've had some kind of sexual conversations in the past but you being on my stream or the way I interact with you never had anything to do with that kind of stuff, just being clear on that

Lav: Oh so you don’t want to fuck me

Destiny: stfu obviously duh

but I'm just saying don't feel like any of our interactions are contingent on anything like that

Lav: Haha

Thanks for saying that

August 13, 2022: Someone in a private Discord server recorded and leaked a conversation where Lav joked about not wanting to have sex with Destiny, and also said that Destiny wanted to perform oral sex on her fiancé.

On stream that day, Dan confronted Destiny about his tolerance for Lav's weaselly behavior.

Destiny: I don't know how much was said in jest [...] In terms of having a threesome with her husband? I'd probably do it, I don't know if we've ever talked about that specifically or not, but, I'm bisexual, Dan! Accept me.

Dan: Yeah, why is it that every person that comes on the stream, you need to try and sleep with? That's not good.

Destiny: I don't need to, it probably came up in a conversation. I've known Lav for I think two years…

Dan: …[ChudLogic] was playing a thing of her in your Discord saying that she would find it funny for you to be with her husband, but would never want to be with you because you're a gnome cheese boy.

Destiny: Based.

Dan: That is not based, that is incredibly two-faced and fucked up and not okay.

Destiny: It might be, I don't know–I'm not pursuing her sexually right now, though.

Dan: No, that's not it. It's just the fucking weaselly fucking–I don't know, it just pisses me off…

Destiny: If it was somebody that I was going after sexually and they were kind of leading me on, but then they were showing up on my stream and shit, I think I would get irritated because I'd be like, "wait a second."

Dan: How do you feel about this person that [...] went and said this about you after you were, I don't want to say vulnerable, but you know, to a little extent, yes. Actually, a lot [of] extent, yes.

Destiny: Wait, how was I vulnerable to her?

Destiny is likely signaling to Dan that he should not disclose that Lav knows about the affair. Dan backpedaled.

Dan: Well, [...] that's like, in the words of a very famous streamer, that is leaking private sexting details.

I interpret this as a reference to Ana's complaint from two years prior that Destiny had announced their sexual relationship on stream.

Destiny: Yeah, but I don't care. I'm open about all my shit. Like I would do a male female threesome, I don't give a fuck. I don't think that's ultra private. [...] It's a little fucked up, for sure.

Dan wasn't convinced–Destiny continued:

Destiny: If personally, if I was chasing this person, and then this was happening, I would be upset. But like, insofar as our relationship is concerned, we talk a little bit privately, and then she's on stream for me. But that's mainly the extent of our stuff. And most of the time she's on stream it's like, pretty brutal experiences for her.

(He laughed as he said "brutal experiences.")

Destiny: But it's not like I'm crushing on her really hard and going after her and then I'm finding out [...] I'm getting played super hard. I'd feel horrible. If that was the case, I'd feel a lot worse.

When Dan said he should be more upset since he seemed to be pursuing Lav sexually, Destiny said "I'm pretty sure we've spoken sexually, probably like over a year ago."

Destiny: The problem is that there are very few types of things in life that truly have me as a vulnerable person, that would upset me if somebody [betrayed me], it's incredibly, incredibly, incredibly uncommon somebody has that level of access to me. Sexually? That is absolutely not one of those things. If some girl hooked up with me and pretended she liked it, and later on she's like, "Destiny's got a small dick, and he sucks," like, I don't give a fuck. I don't care about that shit. Sexuality is not a vulnerable aspect for me, you can hit me on that all you want. It's not gonna bother me.

[...]

Dan: …you've been fucked over by a lot of people. And I'm just trying to be like, "Hey–"

Destiny: I don't know if any other content creator has fucked me over in a way that's like really bothered me before.

In private, Destiny became less responsive to Lav's DMs. She asked if he was mad at her.

Destiny: oh

no

I'm okay lol

idk how else to convey it though

Lav: Christ

Do you have feedback, comments, concerns

Or do we move on because it’s so insignificant

Destiny: oh uh

I already said it like two days ago

just think that every single thing being said in Discord etc...is always being recorded lol

Lav: Yes of course I don’t say anything real in discord calls

But none of that made you feel bad right

Destiny: nah I'm GOOCHIN'

Lav: I could kill you

Destiny: good, bitch

🙂

Lav: When are you coming to la

Destiny: I think Sept 1st

August 25, 2022: This was the day Destiny mocked Merrick DeVille for her suicide attempt on Twitter.

Lav DMed him: Your sicking [sic] your whole audience on this poor woman

Destiny: TELL HER TO STOP

FUCKING TWEETING ABOUT ME

Lav: She’s nobody

She doesn’t exist

She’s just some random girl who just tried to kill herself

Destiny: SHE'S NOT A RANDOM

WE USED TO BE CLOSE FRIENDS

I HATE THAT SHE RANDOMLY TAKES SHOTS AT ME AND SHIT

AKLSDJFA;KSJDF

JUST TELL HER TO FUCK OFF

Lav: She’s very random compared to you

Take a breather !!!

Destiny: 🙂

I'm done now okay I got it out of my system

Lav: Don’t let the internet do this to you!!!!!! Remember your humanity!!!!!

You big fag

Destiny: wow

WOW

Lav: Why do so many of your former friends hate you now

Destiny: that's a long story

Lav: Do I have to worry

Destiny: but honestly there's a lot of good/easy clout for shitting on me

I don't fuck over anyone unless they come after me first, I've never done that before

Lav: Did you have sex with her

Destiny: Yeah, one threesome with her and Melina

August 31, 2022: The day before meeting in LA, Destiny DMed Lav:

…we can do whatever you want, JUST TO BE ULTRA CLEAR I don't care what we do and I don't have any expectations for anything, if we just hang out and eat or chat for a while it's super cool and fine, just keep me updated

She replied: …thank you for putting me at ease and not raping me at gunpoint 💖

September 1, 2022: Lav and Destiny met for an awkward sexual encounter, some of the details of which she would later leak.

September 11, 2022: Destiny's subreddit had two highly-upvoted Lav hate posts, one making fun of her forehead (470 upvotes), and the other stating that viewer call-ins are terrible, but Lav is worse (659 upvotes). She DMed Destiny, who then removed the forehead post.

Lav: Your audience is cancer

Destiny: YEAH THEY'RE

SUPER NEGATIVE TOWARDS YOU

AND HATE WOMEN

DON'T READ THE SUB LAV

Lav: It’s horrifying

September 29, 2022: Destiny asked Lav to meet the following week during TwitchCon for another sexual encounter. She expressed noncommittal interest.

October 5, 2022: After Destiny reiterated the sexual proposition, Lav complained that their latest stream together was posted with the title "Destiny Actually Convinces Her To Concede A Trans Debate."

Lav suggested the alternate title "Girl Gets Negged by Steven for 56 Minutes Straight."

The top YouTube comments included:

My vote is to replace Lav with the cool Ukrainian girl

(2.2K likes)

Ah. The woman who definitely makes it in the streaming world because of her intellect and thoughtful conversations.

(1.1K likes)

I have to chant "I love women" in my head, over and over every time Lav talks.

(1K likes)

During the stream, Lav announced that she had posted a nude to Twitter and would be returning to OnlyFans after all.

A post on Destiny's subreddit praised me for predicting Lav's return to sex work. It received 768 upvotes. One of them was mine.

By this point, a narrative about Lav had taken root in Destiny's sphere: she was slippery, annoying, and needed to be held accountable for her contradictions. She showed promise and some flickering signs of intelligence, but it was imperative that she learn to take feedback and improve as an interlocutor.

For example, ChudLogic posted a 75-minute video in November 2022 titled "Lavlune CONFRONTED and EXPOSED for Absurd Clout Sharking and Flip-Flopping" in which seven men berated Lav about the rudeness of her decision to abruptly leave a small streaming panel for a larger one.

(Of course, Destiny himself is prone to lying and avoiding accountability.)

Chaeiry is a female orbiter whose streams are almost entirely focused on Destiny. In August 2022, when Melina separated from Destiny for a couple weeks over his infidelity, Destiny offered to fly Chaeiry out to Miami to see him–and then ignored her, never actually booking the flight. A week later, Chaeiry wrote a twitlonger saying her fruitless pursuit of a relationship with Destiny had left her feeling "ashamed to be alive." In a tweet, she added that he still "gasses [her] up" despite knowing how it will likely destabilize her. Destiny replied, agreeing that he shouldn't have made the offer, and later confirmed that they'd had a sexual relationship in the past.

In October, Chaeiry did a string of "lore streams" where she took notes on Lav's past public appearances and hunted for inconsistencies.

October 8, 2022: From San Diego, Destiny DMed Lav to ask if she was coming down to see him.

Lav: I’m like having a mental health moment though so idk

Destiny: what's going on?

Lav: [Chaeiry’s] doing like note taking on all my convos

And I tuned in because I was surprised

And I thought the unhinged bitch thing was a bit

And it’s fully not

Destiny: Oh yeah well damn

Don't uh, take anything she says personally

lol

Lav: She’s being super personal

It’s very weird

Waiting for the twitlonger about me next

[...]

I was in a weird place already but tuning into that stream made it like 10x worse

[...]

I nuked my YouTube and I’m deciding if I want to stream

I’m going to hide

Destiny suggested she write down the names of people she cares about, and try to remember that no one else's opinion matters.

Hours later, he asked if she was coming down to San Diego.

Lav: I’m in a blanket watching movies, have fun with your NERD FRIENDS

October 13, 2022

Destiny: ARE YOU AWAKE

CAUSE CHAEIRY IS

Lav: lol [...] is she on?

Destiny: YEAH SHE IS

SHE'S READY TO GO

Lav: I’m coming

Destiny: OKAY

WE'RE WAITING

Coincidentally, I'd DMed him at the same time to ask if he was available to talk the next night, because I thought things seemed tense between us (we'd been arguing about Nick Fuentes for a week, and he'd taken to banning community members who took my side in the argument). He told me he was free to talk right then.

Again, I didn't understand the nature of Destiny's content at this point, and had no idea that he would agree to a conversation about our relationship while simultaneously setting up a cage match between Lav and Chaeiry, all to cause maximum chaos. However, I ended up being quiet for most of the stream because I didn't understand why I was there.

Lav and I joined the stream around the same time. She angrily confronted Chaeiry for mockingly telling her to call a suicide hotline.

Chaeiry: You did a video, in your announcement to returning to sex work, that you privated your videos, and you blamed it on me and you said I'm doing these streams, I'm so mean, and that you got banned from my chat but you couldn't help but keep watching and it was like self harm to you. So when I do have somebody who I think is not well, who has a history of suicidality and cutting, and you tell me watching my stream is like self harm and you can't stop, I'm going to tell you to fuck off. And yeah, I'm gonna link you the suicide hotline. I don't want any of that fucking baggage on me.

Lav: You didn't link me the suicide hotline, you're posturing right now. You did it because you want to be a fucking alpha female bitch, you didn't do it because you fucking cared about me. You piece of shit.

Lav asked Chaeiry to list her criticisms of Lav. Stardust and Jon Zherka joined the stream.

The stream turned into a heated debate over Lav's virtues and flaws. I defended her, but failed to recognize the extremely disturbing nature of putting the character of a potentially suicidal person on trial for entertainment, and then I left the stream.

Chaeiry and Lav continued to fight about Lav's stances on sex work, with Destiny half-moderating and half-cross-examining, leading to exchanges like this:

Destiny: Okay, so you're not going to post any nude photographs of yourself just meant to be enjoyed. It's going to be all educational stuff.

Lav: Well, people can jack off to those, like people are going to jack off to those–

Destiny: That's not what I asked. I don't know what you're talking about. What I'm asking is, are you not going to post any random nudes or naked stuff? You're only going to post educational stuff.

Lav: No, I will post naked stuff also.

Destiny: Okay. Well, that's porn.

After the stream, he DMed Lav: GOOD CONVOS SORRY EVERYONE JUMPS IN TO GANG UP ON YOU

Lav just brings everyone to the yard I guess 🥛

Lav: christ

Destiny: 🙂

Lav: im killing myself

Destiny: That means Chaeiry wins tho

Lav: lmfao

dude chaeiry is retarded

i hate u now

Destiny: 🙂

Lav: do you think im dumb

Destiny: Not at all, I think you're pretty smart tbh, just confused about organizing some concepts in your head, but it's ultra fucking hard to sort that out in literal combat arenas online

You really are trying to figure this stuff out on ultra hard mode, try not to let random losers discourage you online

Lav: TRYIN

💖

October 16, 2022: Late in the night, Chaeiry and Stardust publicly accused me of flashing them.

At the time, I had a herniated disc, and needed to stand up from my chair every half hour or so. On two such occasions, during heated arguments about sex and dating, my hairy abdomen was showing.

Stardust added a blur box to a clip of me standing up to stretch, posted it to Twitter, and described it as me flashing my pubic hair at her.

I immediately posted the unblurred video and said I'd sue her if she didn't delete her tweet. Facing heavy backlash from pretty much everyone, she complied.

Chaeiry's accusation was harder to fight because she was going from memory--my camera feed wasn't being broadcast at the time, so she was the only person who saw me stand up. She said I'd deliberately lowered my sweatpants to expose my pubic hair.

I woke up that day to hear Lav and Destiny talking about the accusation on Destiny's stream.

In her words, Lav wanted to take "a victory lap."

Lav: I think it's fucked up because she is Max's friend. And we already know that Max has this wound. He's very public about it, where he's very cautious of himself around women.

Destiny (laughing): No, he's not. What are you

talking about?

Lav: Sexually? Yes, he is.

Destiny: No, he's made so many women cry or feel uncomfortable on stream. What do you mean he's careful–

Lav: No, no, no, sexually, sexually, sexually.

Destiny: Sexually he's married to another woman. There is no sexual relationship between him and other women. What are you talking about?

Lav Wait, what are you talking about? No, I'm saying that he has a wound–he doesn't want to feel like he's raping anyone.

Destiny: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Lav: Do you not watch his content?

Destiny: Yes. And I've seen him put tons of women in incredibly uncomfortable conversations.

Listening to them talk, I was sobbing.

Over the course of the year, I'd become somewhat detached from my own content and from my own emotions. The most recent self-eviscerating video I'd made was called the mrgirl RealDoll Review. It was a documentary about me fucking a sex doll and talking to my girlfriend about it.

It was the first time that Destiny had ever signaled to his audience that they should disagree with me on anything, and it was amazingly effective. When I pushed back on him against his friendly streams with Nick Fuentes, and saw that he was shutting down criticism with mass bans, I came to believe he was running a cult, and that my new audience was not really my audience at all.

This was a crushing realization for me because it meant all of our conversations were essentially meaningless, and that my emotional vulnerability was being used as entertainment.

Lav wanted Chaeiry's accusations shut down swiftly and harshly, but Destiny clearly wanted them explored, even without me present.

Lav had also revealed that Destiny didn't understand me in the slightest.

I also realized that I had grown to love her, and that I should have been mentoring her instead of shutting her out.

By allowing Lav to slam Chaeiry over her accusation, Destiny had set up a faceoff between us. Now either Chaeiry would look like a falsely accusing woman (one of the worst things to be in the eyes of Destiny's community) or I would look like a sexual harasser.

I was furious that not only was he exploiting my situation, he didn't even DM me or wait until I could be available to represent myself.

Chaeiry joined the stream, saying, "I heard I was getting dragged." She proceeded to defend herself in the only way she could–by attacking me.

I joined the stream soon after, beginning with: "Ladies and gentlemen the court calls Max Karson to the witness stand."

I was terrified. Chaeiry was furious at me, hated Lav, and was in love with Destiny who was pointedly not going to bat for me. Her accusation relied solely on her memory, and while calling her a vindictive liar might have been the safest move for me, it also goes against everything I believe in.

Standing up on camera, wearing the same clothes as I was when I supposedly flashed her, I asked her to walk me through the timeline of events and explain why she thought I'd do that. I stood up in front of my camera, humiliated and frightened, and talked about how my love handles and long torso can make it appear as though my pants are lower than they actually are. The other streamers on the call (Zherka and Ahrelevant) seemed to find this compelling.

Likely fearing a dogpile against herself, Chaeiry interrupted me repeatedly, so I asked Destiny to moderate. When Zherka (who does not like me) prompted Destiny to shut down the "fake cancellation" attempt, Destiny said, "I'm letting these two sort it out. I'm not jumping down anybody's throat. Yeah, I've already given my opinion on it earlier."

I said, "...we've hit a dead end. The dead end is that there's no recording. And all we have is Chaeiry's testimony. I don't even have a counter testimony, I don't remember what I did."

We all watched the section of the video where I supposedly flashed her–I was not visible, but we could see Chaiery's reaction, which did not indicate she was being flashed.

Lav took the opportunity to attack, but I stopped her, saying, "You're very, very passionate and very feisty. This is actually kind of an important moment for my life right now. So I just want to let Chaeiry finish what she's saying."

Chaeiry said: "I think if you did pull them down, I would have said it in the VOD and I think I am getting confused and making incorrect statements."

Fighting back a sobbing breakdown, which I knew was coming, I replied, "Okay, I understand. And I believe you that you're confused. I believe you this is not intentional."

Zherka: Chaeiry's a liar. She'd even doubled down.

Me: I swear on my life, I believe you. I don't think you're lying. I don't think you're being malicious. [...] Something made you uncomfortable. Obviously, either me standing up my body, the conversation, something about what I did made you uncomfortable. That much is clear.

Lycan, one of Destiny's mods, muted Lav and chastised her (and Destiny, indirectly) for not taking the conversation seriously. He said he would continue to mute anyone who wouldn't "grow the fuck up," and said Destiny could fire him if he objected.

I was grateful. He paved the way for Chaeiry and I to reach an understanding–that our previous conversation had made her uncomfortable, and that it made sense that she would read malintent in my actions, but that she'd probably been mistaken.

I asked Destiny, "As the writer of history. What happened here?"

He said: "It seemed like you were adjusting your pants. That's what I saw. I didn't see anything more than that. I wouldn't assume there's any, like, malintent or anything, but I wouldn't see enough to convince me of that. Do you need more than that? Or do I need to be more clear? I don't think you're intentionally trying to creep anybody out."

Lycan unmuzzled Lav.

Lav: I think it sucks so bad, Steven, that you have not come to Max's aid at all. I think that you know–

Destiny: Careful! Hold on! If you want to be–

Lav: We just saw Chaeiry fucking lie about it. She did not concede she doubled down on it.

Destiny: You're assuming–hold on, hold on…

Lav: No, no, no, let me finish. Okay. Max cannot defend himself right now, because if he does, he looks really bad. So he needs you. He needs you to create a narrative–or not create a narrative, but to tell the general public that he is not a creepy antisocial rapist, and you will not do it for some reason.

I tried to interject, but Destiny told me to shut the fuck up.

Destiny: Lav, you just made the exact same fucking mistake that Chaeiry did. Chaeiry saw an action, she assumed a state of mind–don't ever fucking roll your eyes at me like that. I swear to god, I ever see you do that again.

Lav: Or what?

Destiny: Stop. So Chaeiry's huge fuck up here was that she assumed a state of mind or she assumed an intention that probably wasn't there, [...] and I did say that unequivocally. I said that in clear terms. I think most people would understand. I don't think Max did anything weird or creepy, and I think it was probably dumb to tweet it out. I've already said this, okay? [...] Your problem, Lav, is you are assuming that Chaeiry is like just fucking lying. Okay now it could be–

Lav: She did just lie.

Destiny: Saying something that is not true is not the same as lying. Do you understand that?

Lav: No. No I don't.

Me: He's saying that she was confused.

Destiny: No, stop. Okay, a lie implies intent. Okay, if I tell you I'm going to be home by five–

Lav: No.

Destiny: Yes, it does, you dumb bitch! Okay, if I tell you, I'm gonna be home by 5pm today, and I run late from work and I get home at like, 5:20 I didn't fucking lie to you. It might not be true.

Lav: First of all, don't talk to me like that. Don't call me a dumb bitch.

Destiny: Stop, stop, you're actually triggering the fuck out of me. Holy shit, stop. There is a difference between a lie and being wrong about something. Okay? It could totally be the case. The problem I had with you is you're making the exact same mistake that Chaeiry's making, but you're eager to blow your load down her fucking throat about it. [...] So I think she was wrong, and I think that going live with these tweets, accusations, whatever. was dumb, and she shouldn't have done it. It was irresponsible…

Lav: I'm gonna take the "Chaeiry's a fucking liar" stance.

Me: Steven, if you're characterizing what she did, I agree with you. It was not intentional, or she's confused. I agree with that. But if you're gonna describe it as just silly, it feels like you're absolving her of the responsibility that comes with a platform and comes with making accusations like this, where I think you do have some kind of responsibility to not be confused. When you make these accusations–

Destiny: I just said that. You probably shouldn't be going live with stuff like this without doing a very clear, like, recording. What do you want me to say? Chaeiry! You're a dumb fuck! Don't do this!

Me: [...] No, I don't want you to performatively mock me by calling Chaeiry dumb. That's not what I'm asking you to do. obviously. I'm saying that [...] when a baseless and unfounded accusation or a silly accusation can ruin someone's life, I feel like you calling it silly at that point is kind of absolving her of all responsibility. [...]

Destiny: The reason why I think all of this is silly is because none of this is ruining anybody's life. And I don't think anybody's gonna remember this in two days [...]

Lav: People are waiting for max to fuck up. Do you think people aren't waiting for max to fuck up even a little bit?

Destiny: Not as much as you're waiting for Chaeiry to fuck up [...] You literally told me you were coming on stream to do a victory lap.

Lav: [...] You're scared to go too hard on her because she already wrote a fucking twitlonger about you. This is a pattern that Chaeiry has.

Destiny: Chaeiry can write as many twitlongers about me as she wants. I don't care, I am not scared of any of you crazy fucking women writing any twitlongers about me because I'm above it all. [...] But you're all so ready for Chaeiry to fuck up [...] so everybody's making way too extreme statements [...]

Me: But I'm not making too extreme statements though, right?

Destiny (shouting): No, your statements Max are annoyingly fucking reserved, and I understand why, you should be going way harder, but obviously you're [...] worried about it looking bad. But yeah, you should be pushing way harder. You shouldn't be like "Chaeiry, is there anything that maybe you would want to rephrase?" What you should say is, "Chaeiry, why the fuck are you implying that I was fucking sexually harassing you?"

I left the stream a mess.

The truce with Chaeiry didn't last long–all of the orbiters made sure to publicly attack me once they learned I was writing this piece. When I DMed her asking for an interview, she said "fuck off."

During the stream, Destiny and Lav had the following conversation over DMs:

Destiny: you're on your way to success

i'm proud of you, good lil' drama farmer

[…]

I'M OGNNA

CUT UR

THROAT

TWITLONGER ME

DO IT

1. METOO ME

I'M GONAN KILL U

Lav: do not ever call me a bitch like that again

this is all fun.

do not do that.

Destiny: 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐 😐

Lav: youre a good streamer but you need to be a good friend to max rn

Destiny: HE IS FINE

YOU GUYS BLEW THIS UP 1000000000000000X MORE THAN IT NEEDED TO BE

[...]

Destiny: ♥

Lav: 💖💖

Destiny: sorry if "Bitch" is a trigger from [sic] you I won't call you that anymore

don't call me a simp tho I'll fuckin' kill u

Destiny: SAYING WE SPOKE FACE 2 FACE

M8

Lav: .........

i iddnt say while u were eating me out

Two days later:

Lav: You calling me a dumb bitch has opened up the most insane …24 hours to me

I don’t want to tell you what to do with your platform. It’s your life. I will be bowing out. I can not handle the vitriol from your audience.

I obviously know I’m an acquired taste but the amount of people just spamming me with it, is a lot

Sorry I didn’t want it to look like I was 100% blaming you for viewer response to me

Destiny: Bro you are INSANELY COMBATIVE online I have been so unbelievably patient in our conversations but you go so hard over and over again idk what you expect [...]

But listen you're always free to do what you want matey

[...]

Lav: I appreciate you being patient with me

But you blowing up and calling me a dumb bitch….with your audience was a decision you made that is affecting me

If that was just us, and we were in person, it would be different.

I still wouldn’t be happy.

You’ve told me you know your community is toxic to women. Why would you not keep that in mind when speaking to me?

I’m mad at myself, I’m frustrated with you. I’m not blaming you for everything. I just want you to be more aware of how I’m feeling and the way I FEEL and think you should be aware of the parasocial influence your audience has

Destiny: You have called me and others a MILLION NAMES you are totally out of line if me calling you a bitch is what set things over the line

And if it was "in person" ofc it's nicer BECAUSE WE'RE NOT ARGUING

Lav: Steven I don’t have the audience you have.

And we’re friends

People read that.

Destiny: Then why are you accusing me of being a SIMP for someone when I'm just trying to be impartial???

Lav: And they’re like hm okay stevens totally done with this bitch, let’s go nuclear

I wasn’t implying you were being a simo [sic] first of all I was implying you unconfrontational

Destiny: You literally SAID IT

What??????

Lav: And second, why are you so scared of being a “simp”

Why is this the most insane thing

Did I?

Destiny: Because you are accusing me of being bias in a situation because I want to fuck someone??? It's literally hardcore enforcing the misogyny I'm trying to weed out of my community

Lav: I don’t think that’s what I said ?

Destiny: ???????

Lav: I think I said you were worried about another twitlonger or dirt she’d have if you didn’t defend her

[...]

Lav: Steven

Look at your subreddit

A sampling of popular comments across 10 posts made about Lav after the most recent stream:

Is Lav actually the most dishonest and logically inconsisent [sic] orbiter or is it just more noticeable since she is more aggressive than others?

(423 upvotes)

Link | Archive

This was so damn cathartic. [referring to Destiny screaming that Lav is a dumb bitch]

(287 upvotes)

Link | Archive

Cathartic.

(82 upvotes)

Pseudo-intellectual is still too, too generous.

(229 upvotes)

because she is literally a dumb bitch

(100 upvotes)

"You don't get to talk to me like that" is crazy. Guess what, goofy, he already did. The fact that he's been so patient with you and even nice to you in-person by your own admission should probably be a sign that you massively fucked up that stream at least.

(66 upvotes)

Link | Archive

Lav: Look at your YouTube comments

A sampling of popular comments on the most recent stream:

Destiny: "lying requires intent" lav: "No" this is a prime example of lav just saying whatever she feels like at the moment and not holding any actual consistent beliefs she just says whatever she feels like at the moment

(1,800+ likes)

It's amazing how Lav can come out of a drama that doesn't involve her looking like the worst person. A real talent to be that unlikeable.

(1000+ likes)

My respect for women is ever growing thanks to your content.

(1,200+ likes)

Amazing how Cherry made basically false harassment allegations and doubled down on them, and Lav is still more unlikeable.

(286 likes)

There was also an unusual post made in support of Lav on Destiny's subreddit that day:

"I really think Destiny and this community have been dogpiling on Lav a little excessively."

(0 upvotes.)

Link | Archive

Lav: Why are you pretending your audience is not filled with misogynists and vitriolic el toxicos

Destiny's reply: …

Lav: No concession ? You’re steadfast in that you handled everything great and correctly [...] ?

An hour later, Destiny posted the following in his offline chat:

prepare yourselves for when I get back home

no more soft moderating

we're hardcore moderating all ironic/unironic misogyny until it is gone from all parts of our community

the problem is I can have a legion of dumbfuck men on stream and you fucking retards will never hate men for it because 98% of you are men

but every time it's a woman acting like a dumbfuck it's "INCEL FACTORY, SHE IS MAKING ME HATE ALL WOMEN, HOW CAN I NOT HATE WOMEN AFTER THIS OMG"

Late that night, Lav reacted to Destiny's new decree by jokingly DMing him:

Lav: Okay come over

I'm wet

[...]

Destiny: None of my recent changes have anything to do with you.

[...]

Lav: Ok. I don’t know if you have other shit going on or you just like being fired up. This is a nothing argument. I had a moment the other day. I’m not mad. I hope you’re not mad because I haven’t given you a reason to be.

Destiny: I get extremely fucking triggered when I am getting shit on from both sides so eventually it just makes me completely disconnect from the issue and I stop caring because it's absolutely not worth it

Lav: I totally get that. Sorry for adding to it! Hope you’re well otherwise Take care of yourself

October 22, 2022: Lav co-hosted my call-in show, mrgirl Hotline.

I told her that I had just confronted Destiny about how he treats his orbiters. I described how his system was rigged to make us look bad, and if we somehow managed to successfully challenge him he would ban support for us anyway.

Lav said that was what we signed up for. We would be dogpiled in exchange for Destiny doing us the favor of bringing us on stream.

I was adamant that it was not a favor–we'd been cast on an entertainment program and we should be treated with dignity rather than be abused. I told her that this defense made him sound like Harvey Weinstein.

Lav said that I needed to learn the difference between setting boundaries for myself and trying to control others. I countered that any boundary can be described in both ways–for example, if I go over to someone's house, I have to be allowed to use their bathroom. If I'm not, then I don't want to be there. But you could also frame that as me "telling them how to run their household."

I said I could live with Destiny having an advantage in all discussions and having more sway over the audience, but not with him banning me and anyone who agrees with me from his subreddit, where issues and narratives are discussed more thoughtfully than on stream. (I'd been banned from his subreddit two days prior–Destiny would later tell me that he didn't want me whipping up too much negative sentiment about him with my criticism that he was sanitizing Nick Fuentes.)

Lav countered that Destiny doesn't care about any of that, and that I have to choose if I'm going to leave or be his little monkey and dance for him. She told me he can't be trained to treat people well and that I should let go of the idea that I can teach him how to be a good friend.

The following day, Lav DMed Destiny.

Lav: [...] I didn’t mean to talk shit about you, just level with max and find a middle ground

Destiny: 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

Lav: I’m too baby for drama

Destiny: YOU ARE DRIVING ME CRAZY M80

Lav: I am?

Destiny: YES

Lav: What did I do?!

I feel like I’ve been handling this well?

Destiny: 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

[...]

Destiny: How you speak about me is insane

and to some extent how you speak about the community

[...]

Lav: I just watched what u said about me on stream and I actually want to murder you

(He'd said that she was childish and unempathetic.)

Destiny: 🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂

Lav: can i come on

Destiny: ANY TIME

🙂

The resulting conversation would be uploaded to Destiny's channel with the title "Destiny Finally Takes Gloves Off, Debate Ends In TEARS."

Lav: The framing of this as drama has me stressed out.

Destiny: Good. Feel stressed, because you have no problem running your mouth on 15 other fucking channels about this quote unquote drama. [...]

Lav: [...] When did I talk shit? What did I say?

Destiny: [...] The way that you characterize me as a [blithering] fucking moron [...] "oh, he just doesn't care about me, and he's being mean and [it's] the whole reason his community hates me." [...] You even said personally to me, you said that one phrase that I said to you was a big reason why you were getting–

Lav: It emboldens your community, which is just true.

Destiny: [...] I've told you a million times what gets you the most hate. And [...] I see it happening over and over and over and over again. Just [to sticky note it over] the conversation, let me say it real quick, real quick–

Lav: No, no, no, no. Because here's the problem. You think that I'm counting every single bit of criticism or everything about me on your subreddit as misogyny, and I've repeatedly said I don't think that that's the case. I think that eighty percent of it is probably pretty constructive. [...] A lot of these people are mostly just giving me feedback on how to have winning debates or how to talk smoother or how to be more logical, right? [...] That's fine. Even if they say it in a mean way, that's fine.

Destiny: Okay, that's great that you're saying this right now. But when you're on other platforms, you're saying things like, "Oh, well, his audience has a lot of Groypers in it." [...] My audience has a lot of Groypers in it–what a weird statement to say. You spend more time on alt-right Groyper platforms than I do. Do you understand that?

("Groypers" are followers of far right white supremacist Nick Fuentes. Lav was referring to the undeniable influx of Fuentes fans into Destiny's subreddit as a result of Destiny's friendly streams with him.

Destiny's counter is to set up yet another zero-sum game by pointing out that Lav hangs out with Groypers, too.)

Lav: Okay, Steven, sure, but I'm not interacting with as many males as you, first of all. So I think in a space that is dominated mostly by males, there's going to be a little bit of misogyny that's bred more than if it's an all female space–

Destiny: Okay, you've totally pivoted away from the original claim, but go ahead.

Lav: You didn't let me fucking finish, first of all. So even if 80% of the criticism is valid, 20% of it is so fucking loud. And they're posting pictures of me without my makeup on, they're telling me to go back to sex work, that I should just shut my fucking mouth–

Destiny countered that the ugliest comments about Lav are on Twitter, which he can't control and which shouldn't reflect on him or his community. She argued against his framing that she was trying to hold him accountable for anything, and explained that she was instead trying to express how it felt to have him refuse to protect her.

Lav: I'm having a really hard time coming to grips with the fact that I've been stupid online. [...] I think it's a lot all at once to have so many people hate me. Which isn't about you, that's obviously very much about me. [...] I really am grateful to you for spending this time with me on stream because it's great for business, right, but I also didn't know what I was really getting into. And then when it turned out it was bad–it's upsetting for so many people to pick me apart constantly. And I think that you're used to that because you've had this platform for so long, but I'm still sort of just–this is my first little dip, my first toe dip in it, and so I wish that you'd…

She trailed off, almost crying.

Lav: I'm not going to be another girl that cries on your stream, holy shit. So I think when I talked to you about calling me a dumb bitch, it really hurt because I felt like not only was your community painting me this way, but you, who knows me personally, is saying these things to me and affirming that it's true, that I am just a stupid dumb bitch who knows nothing, which hurts more when you say it because you know me better than your community. And then, because your community knows that you know me better, they're like, "Okay, it's open season basically [...] because Steven is telling us that it is okay to do this." [...] That hurts me a lot. So then I had to be like, "Okay, well, I don't want to change Steven's mind because I think what he's feeling is valid, but I might just have to take myself out of the equation, because I can't handle this." Whereas Max was like, "Well, I can change his mind, I can change him," I was just like, "I think it's just healthier for me if I don't involve myself in this, or just like, cool it down." [...] I've been trying to not give you too much shit because I know that Max is giving you a lot and I know that your audience is giving you a lot, and I know that obviously the whole Nick stuff or whatever. I don't know. So I've been trying to give you space. But then I–

Destiny: But you've been shit-talking me on like every platform you've been going on.

Lav: I didn't shit-talk you, Steven.

Destiny: You wouldn't say the conversation you had with Max, you don't think that was shitting on me a little bit? Or the conversation with Brittany and Erudite, you wouldn't say that was shitting on me a little bit? You want to watch those clips together? We can go over if we think that is or not?

Lav: This is what I'll say. Okay, I'll concede, I guess I was shit-talking you, but I think in a way that was productive that humanized you. So it doesn't seem as bad to me.

Destiny: I don't know what that sentence meant.

Lav: I wasn't painting you as evil.

Destiny: You're painting me as uncharitable and dishonest, which is like the worst things–I would rather somebody say I have a small dick, okay. My honesty and my charitability are the two things that I've extended the most to you and to other people in general.

[...]

Destiny: So when you say things like, "Why do you pretend your audience is not filled with misogynists and vitriolic el toxicos? What is the implication there? That it's just a few people on Twitter? The implication is huge–

Lav: It's not just a few people. It's enough–

Destiny: And then when you say later, you said "you handled everything incorrectly," that implies that there is some level of blame that I have there.

[...]

Lav: I think I've moved in the week since it happened. I think I wanted you to protect me from your audience in a way that wasn't fair. I was asking for special treatment, and I was upset when you didn't give it to me, and now I'm sort of just dealing with the bed that I shit in. And yeah, I was wrong. I don't think that your audience is filled with Groypers and misogynists. I think that they're certainly there, and I think that you could probably do things to quell some of that if you were extremely cautious.

Destiny: I understand the things you're saying–it all feels like placating to me. Because

when you were talking to Max, Max was making it sound like I was so beyond fucking damaged or whatever, and you're like, "Oh, well, no, well, we shouldn't even try to change him, like that's just the way that he is, and I can't interact with that anymore."

Lav: So, no, no, so I still feel that same way. So I think I can love you from like, here. But knowing that if I interact with you in that way, I'm gonna get my feelings hurt because I can't control you.

Destiny: Interact with me in what way?

Lav: If I go on your stream I can't trust you or expect you to treat me with kid gloves anymore.

[...]

Destiny: You're really good at this, okay. But I'm far older than you, okay. I see through your devious tricks, okay. [...] This implication that you were talking about me like a butterfly that you can't catch, and you have to let it flap its wings in the wind…

(I agree with Destiny here, Lav was placating him, but she didn't have much of a choice. Destiny hates being placated, yes, but he also can't tolerate being criticized. When Lav did one, he demanded she switch to the other.)

Lav: I said that you struggled interpersonally, I said that you had to detach–

Destiny: You said that you didn't feel like you wanted to teach me how to treat you properly. The implication of that is so much more negative and vitriolic than you're giving it credit for [...]. The implication was that I'm this monster that can't even be trained to treat a woman properly on stream.

Lav: Whoa, that's not what I meant, that's not what I meant at all.

Destiny: That's what you implied. And that probably is what you meant.

[...]

Destiny: You're like, "I don't really wanna be friends with Steven because I don't think he knows how to treat people properly. I'm not going to train anybody how to treat me well. I think you shouldn't be friends with him either."

Lav: I never said that you [and Max] should not be friends. I said that he should let go.

Destiny: What does that mean?

Lav: I don't think that you get it because you have a very detached attachment style. I don't think that you understand what anxious attachment is or what it feels like. And that's fine.

Destiny: No. In this conversation right now–

Lav: Steven, are you seriously going to tell me that you don't struggle interpersonally?

Destiny: No, I don't struggle interpersonally. No, I don't.

Lav: That's a fucking joke.

Destiny: It's not a joke. I don't.

Lav: You have you have feuded and fought with everyone in all fucking four corners of the fucking internet, Steven.

Destiny: Yeah, and I can tell you exactly why I fight with anybody that I do. It's not a mystery to me.

Lav: Yeah, there's always a reason, there's always a reason, it's always someone else, it's never you.

Destiny: Hold on. That's not true. I have a super aggressive personality. There's a lot of reasons why people don't like me, but I know that. I'm not confused, I'm never on stream trying to figure out like, "I don't know why they're treating me that way."

Lav: But I can't bring up those reasons?

Destiny: You could. Oh, are you bringing up those reasons? Because five seconds ago you were trying to say that it wasn't about me, that it was about Max, but now that I'm willing to admit, of course, yeah, I am an asshole–now you do want to make it about me? Or which one is it? I can't tell, you're changing positions in real time, you've got the Thanos ring, reality's whatever I want it to be!

[...]

Lav: I think that I've done a fine job recognizing why you're hurt. And you still are making me like this–you're like painting me as this villain, like manipulative and–

Destiny: Because you kind of are acting like a villain. Yes. But I'm gonna give you the final word because I have to leave [...].

Lav: Yeah, I think that's an unfair characterization, but I don't know what else to say. Because I want to have a productive conversation. It doesn't feel very productive.

Destiny: It doesn't feel productive because I'm not just acquiescing to everything you're saying, Like going yeah, true, I agree, I agree, I agree. It feels unproductive because I'm giving you pushback. You probably don't get it very much. That would be my guess.

Lav: I get it. I get it enough, it just sucks when I'm trying to be vulnerable to you, and you're painting everything that I'm doing maybe messily as like, intentional.

Destiny: No, hold on. You're not being vulnerable to me, [...] you're giving me excuses, rationalizations and justifications for everything you've done.

[...]

Lav: Maybe my people skills fucking suck then, but for you to be painting me–

Destiny sighed dramatically.

Lav: Dude, and even the way that you're talking to me now. I don't know how to ask for what I want from you.

Destiny: Okay, talk anytime you want, off stream or on stream, whatever you want to do. I need to go [...].

Crying, Lav left the call.

Destiny: Jesus. Holy fuck. Her and Max are like the two most mind-fucky people to navigate conversations with. It's actually insane. Jesus.

That day, I watched this stream with Shaelin on our living room TV. Near the end, Shaelin started crying, and said, "This is the first time I've seen his face close up like this. I've never been able to see how sad he is."

The following morning, October 24, Destiny streamed his reaction to a clip of a conversation between Lav and Brittany Simon (another fellow Destiny orbiter).

In the clip, Lav said that because she has a "propensity to self-abandon," the criticism on Destiny's subreddit hits particularly hard. Brittany, who said she has borderline personality disorder, agreed.

Destiny went on a rant about what he perceived as Lav's tendency to blame her psychological problems on others "[...] Stop externalizing everything to things that are in your fucking head, fix it, figure it out. The usage of psychology language to everything is so fucking grating, kill me. "I have the propensity to self abandon," shut the–no! Fix it! Do something! What?Just, stop. Stop using these words. "I have an anxious attachment style–who cares? Fix it! Do something about it. [...] Oh, this is my blame box. Oh, did you just say that I'm blah blah blah. Well, here's my attachment style. Oh, did you say blah blah? Well, I have OCD. Oh did you say blah blah blah? No! That's who you are. Do something about it."

"[...] Lav and Max are both incredibly adept at gaslighting and DARVO-ing, they're both so fucking good at it. Lav not as much, Max is very good. [...] DARVO is when you basically flip the script and you make the other person feel bad when you should probably be the one that feels bad. It stands for deny, attack, and reverse the victim and offender. If you ever feel like you're in a personal relationship with somebody, and you feel bad a lot, and every time you try to confront them about them making you feel bad, somehow, by the end of the conversation, you're always the one that's in the wrong–now, it doesn't necessarily mean they're doing that. And you could actually be in the wrong and you're fucked up, but that should be a key to you that something needs to change about your interactions with that person. There are some people in life that are really really really–I did this a lot. I still do it sometimes to Mel, I love you Mel, there are some people that are so good at navigating conversations and making it so that you're the problem, even though it's their fault. If you find somebody that does that to you over and over and over again, you need to take a step back and say, "Okay, am I actually a terrible fucking person? Or does this motherfucker flip the script on me constantly?" Always be careful of that. Always, always, always be careful of that."

About 10 minutes later, Lav DMed Destiny.

(I don't know if she was watching Destiny's stream live, but it's more likely that one of their mutual fans told her that he was criticizing her. My own fans notify me whenever anyone prominent talks about me, supposedly to be helpful, but probably also to stir up conflict. Destiny is well aware of this dynamic, as it goes both ways–if you talk about him, he will know almost immediately.)

Lav: Hey

I’d like to talk off stream.

I don’t want to stress you out, doesn’t need to happen immediately, just whenever you have a free night. 💕

Destiny: Yeah sure thing, I'm free tonight or tomorrow night if you want matey

Lav: Tonight works, what time do u end stream again sorry I always forget

I definetly [sic] want to milk you

Destiny: 🙂

Lav: I appreciate you saying I’m not dumb. I don’t appreciate you calling me an ABUSER.

Christ almighty

That night, things came to a head in a stream that would later be titled "Aba CONFRONTS Destiny, Triggers MELTDOWN 13 Person Debate | CIVIL WAR."

I had plans to speak with Destiny about the power dynamics in his relationships with his orbiters, but I joined because I saw Lav getting dogpiled in a discussion about how dumb she is.

Destiny, ostensibly defending her from Aba, said, "I would say that Sneako does worse than Lav because at least, at the end of the day, Lav is like, "Yeah, maybe I'm dumb. And maybe I'm not thinking this through, and maybe I'm too aggressive. And at least she'll admit it, even if I feel like it might be kind of a half-cope. But Sneako wouldn't say that at all."

Lav, having just joined the call, tried to interject while Aba talked over her: "[...] If Lav is saying, 'I'm compromised in some kind of way, I need attention' or whatever, whatever the fuck it is that she's saying, compelling her to do this stuff, okay, there's no point in having these discussions. Because even if you do prove her wrong, well, then she says 'I'm confused.'"

Lav said, "You'd rather me not acknowledge that I have shortcomings."

Aba replied, "I would rather you not have conversations if you don't think."

Destiny said, "[...] For you it sounds like you're taking accountability by saying 'I don't know.' But for Aba, it feels like that's a way of avoiding accountability by making extreme statements and then saying, 'I don't know.'"

Lav: Sure, but do you know how inhuman it is for a person to, in the middle of a conversation, be like, "Oh my god, you're so right, I'm so wrong." That's not normal.

Me: Lav. Don't let them Motte and Bailey you. Aba said you don't think when you talk. That's what you're responding to. Don't let Steven slip in some charitable sounding bullshit that you can respond to instead.

After she continued to defend herself, I said, "Lav, I think you should reject the premise that your character is on trial and that it's acceptable for Aba to come in and just start criticizing you. I think even by responding to his criticisms–it's a weird situation where it's like, everybody who has an opinion on whether Lav is full of shit should just come in and start talking about it."

Aba left, and we talked about our grievances with Destiny. Lav said she wished he'd express (public) remorse about calling her a dumb bitch, and he said he never would.

Lav: If you looked at your chat after that, or if you looked at your subreddit after that, it was like, pages and pages of people just repeating "dumb bitch dumb bitch dumb bitch dumb bitch," which is like, okay, at some point, yeah, you're allowed to respond that way to me, but when it then just becomes an echo chamber of everyone who wants to ingroup signal about hating me, that just becomes a little masturbatory and I don't think that you should allow something like that.

Destiny: I mean, everybody already hates you on my subreddit, so I don't think that changed things much, so.

Lav: I definitely saw a difference.

Me: Lav calling Chaeiry a dumb bitch doesn't have the same effect as you calling Lav a dumb bitch because you have way, way more power than her.

Destiny: I don't care. If somebody's going to come onto my stream–

Me: I know, that's my whole problem–

Destiny: No, no, no, no, hold on. If you think you care about that, then you're engaging in a social dynamic that is unsustainable, and is never going to be agreed to by anybody else in any other circumstance, ever. If you want to come and engage on my platform, you're totally welcome to do so. But I'm not gonna let you get away with markedly worse behavior because you're a smaller person. In the way earlier that you said that I tried to discredit Lav by calling her irrational, you're trying to baby her by saying she's a smaller streamer. So of course she can act in that way, she's just a small streamer.

Me: No–

Destiny: Yeah, that is exactly what you said. Now, if you want to restate what you said, that's fine. Hold on. No, no, no, you can't just say no, you didn't say that, you exactly said–let me repeat verbatim–you said "Destiny, when you call Lav this name, it is a much different effect than when Lav calls Chaeiry that name." You're arguing for a different type of treatment because of the size or reputation of the two figures. And I'm telling you that that is something–

Me: I'm telling you that I think you're abdicating your responsibility.

Destiny: So Lav doesn't have that responsibility? Why?

Me: [...] Because you are in charge of the community. They're all your fans, it's playing to a much larger audience of your fans than anybody else's.

Destiny: It doesn't matter. Lav is still contributing to the community in that conversation the same way that I am.

Me: She is, but there's a different effect. When you call someone a dumb bitch, it has a way different effect on the person you're saying it to than it does when she says it. You're like Superman, and you're like fighting a normal person, and you think the normal rules should apply to you but I don't agree.

Brittany: Why? Is it because he has more subscribers? Or because he's a man? Because he's smarter than her? Why?

Lav: It's his platform.

Me: I don't think Steven is smarter than Lav.

Lav: Thank you.

Me: I don't think Lav's smarter than Steven. I don't agree to the narrative that Lav is dumb. [...] Steven and Lav are both very intelligent people.

Destiny: Okay, that's because Max is gonna have some incredibly esoteric definition of dumb– [...] Do you think that she's gonna be smarter when she's 30 years old than she is now or would you not say smarter?

Lav: I would hope so.

[...]

Me: Lav is going to be smarter? I don't know. She'll be wiser.

Destiny: Okay, I just wanted to get it out there then that you're totally randomly using words, but okay, go for it. Now make your point.

Me: I'm not randomly using words. I'm saying that I think if you both took an IQ test, I think maybe you would–

Destiny: No one here is talking about IQ tests. And she's got Ashkanazi fucking Jewish blood so it's not fair to compare us, okay? I'm working on some Hispanic shit, I'm literally debuffed at birth.

Lav: I'm half-Mexican.

Brittany: It sounds to me, Max, and I could be wrong, but it sounds like you're trying to make the argument that [...] Steven's positioning puts Lav at a disadvantage. So he has to act accordingly, so Lav doesn't get thrown under the bus. But again, that puts the responsibility on who? Steven. Taking the responsibility away from who? Lav.

Me: No, that's not what I'm saying. Steven in some ways is our boss.

Brittany: What the fuck. Speak for yourself. No.

Me: Steven is our boss. And he's also our friend, but he's our boss. And that creates a lot of weird social dynamics, because he's not just the boss of when you can come on his stream and make money and grow your platform. He's the boss of you that way, but he's also in charge of the community's narrative about you. He controls what people think of you to a large degree. So if you're having a conversation with Steven offline and he calls you a dumb bitch, and you call him a dumb bitch, then yeah, blows are exchanged, nothing happens. But it's like the fucking President calling you a dumb bitch when he calls you a dumb bitch on stream. The community of people, this very large community who are very attached to Steven and his beliefs and the way he sees things–it changes your public existence when he says something like that.

[...]

Me: I think that part of Steven's appeal is that he is not responsible. I think people like that about him. People like that he will have chicken and waffles with Fuentes, and then I play the opposite character saying, oh, shaking my finger, you shouldn't be doing this. I think people like that he will defend saying the n-word. I think people like that he'll make the comments about the dipshit protesters, people like watching him fly off the handle and watching him do things that other creators would call irresponsible. And he usually has a defense for it, an explanation that is consistent with his views on this. However, I think that I'm asking him to be more responsible now, with this topic. I think that he is irresponsible. When he talks to you like you're equals and attacks you as you would an equal, when you're not.

Brittany Simon: In what way aren't they equal? Talk to me like I'm stupid, I don't get it. [...]

Lav: So it's in the eyes of the audience who sees Steven as [...] the person that they watch on stream every day, and we are like, orbiters.

Destiny: I don't have that much sway necessarily over their opinions about you guys. [...] If that was the case, Lav, my community wouldn't shit on you relentlessly when I was unbelievably charitable to you for a long time. [...] It seems like if I have a negative reaction to you, everything negative on the sub[reddit] all of a sudden becomes my responsibility when it could have been anything that you could have possibly said.

Me: [...] All I'm saying is I want you to acknowledge the power differential and keep it in mind when you're talking to us.

Brittany Simon: No, no, talking to you. Who do you mean us?

Chaeiry: Yeah–

Me: Here's what I want. I, Max Karson, aka mrgirl, I want when Steven is talking to someone who has less power than him, which is most of his conversations when he's talking to an orbiter, and that includes all of you. [...] When Steven is talking to someone who has less power than him, even if that person does not want this, even if a 13-year-old wants to have sex with their gym teacher, I still think that the power differential should be acknowledged. And I think that Steven, what I plead with you to do is to think about and acknowledge the power differential–

Destiny: That's not what you're asking, don't lie. I know there's a power differential to some extent. Of course. You're not asking me to acknowledge it, you're asking me to change a behavior. Get to what you're actually asking for. [...]

Me: [...] When you are talking about someone calling someone a bitch on your stream, don't compare that person to you. Don't defend your behavior by comparing it to an orbiter's behavior. It's like, totally unacceptable to me. You shouldn't do that.

Destiny: And that's good, and I totally disagree with you. I don't think that just 'cause somebody [is a] smaller streamer they can get away with anything they want. [...] So if somebody's gonna be on here and they're gonna call somebody a bitch a million times, I'm gonna call them a bitch. And just because we have a power differential doesn't mean–

Max: Those are opposite points. I'm not saying Lav should be able to call people a bitch, I'm saying you can't. And the reason you can't is not the same reason that Lav can't, so it may be true that both of you shouldn't, but it's not the same reason.

Destiny: Okay, I disagree, but I understand what you're saying. I just totally disagree. [...] I'm okay with rolling around in the mud. But if you're gonna roll around in the mud, I'm gonna roll around with you. That's it. But you're saying I can't because I'm too big for the pigpen.

Me: Yes.

Destiny: And I disagree. If somebody else wants to do it on my stream, fine. We can get a little bit more rowdy if you want to do that. [...]

[...]

Pxie, who I'd never talked to before, told me I sounded entitled. Destiny then summarized her argument.

Destiny: You're doing this thing where you're like, "just because I don't make a formal agreement with you doesn't mean that I can't have some forms of boundaries," which everybody here would agree, you don't have to make a formal agreement with somebody to have some form of boundaries. But you're not talking about a boundary like a friendship boundary, it seems like you're extending that to almost like a form of professional boundary. You're talking about, "these are the rules that you need to make to moderate your community to appease me professionally." [...] In order to make a professional ask, if somebody were to have a professional boundary, it seems like some professional agreement would have needed to have been made and not just assumed. Otherwise you have a feeling of entitlement that isn't justified. That sounds like what Pxie's argument was.

Lav and I continued to argue with the others about whether orbiter relationships with Destiny count as professional relationships, and whether it's reasonable to have any professional boundaries or expectations within those relationships. (Ironically, the conversation itself netted Destiny 430,000 monetized views.)

Things came to a head when Lav brought up Ana.

Me: I think you have a blind spot when it comes to interpersonal responsibility, when one person has more power than another person. I think you had a blind spot about Dr. K, I think you have a blind spot with you and your own orbiters, I think that you don't understand the amount of psychological devastation that you can cause in some of the same people who are defending you right now, who have been raked across the coals by you. [...]

Lav: I think a perfect example of this is the Ana situation.

Dan cackled.

Destiny: I'm actually about to actually nuke you from orbit. Lav, this is one of the things where you're too young and actually stupid to even begin to comment on. If you do this, I'm going to actually lose my shit. Please stop. I already saw your clips talking about it. I will lose my mind if you try to make an example of this. I'll actually lose–I already have lost it. Don't, please. Holy shit. Stop. [...] I love you, Lav, I'm sorry.

Me: I'm not gonna press you on that but you do see an extreme amount of resistance to certain criticisms, right?

This was still before I knew much about his relationship with Ana. I did not know he was sexting with her at the time. I did know she'd been branded a stalker but I had not heard about her doing any actual stalking behavior.

Me: [...] I just want it to be acknowledged that when Lav says "hey, I think you mistreated this person really publicly and I want to press you on it," his first response was "I will cut ties with you."

Destiny: I have the right to do that. [...]

I argued that, while each instance of him shutting down criticism might not be abusive on its own, the pattern was disturbing.

Destiny: You're so excited and so happy to talk about people's boundaries and stuff in other circumstances, but if I want to draw a strong boundary here, like, if you do this, I'm done completely–I'm not allowed to have that boundary because of the position that I've assumed, as I guess, the de facto psychological rape victim, because I'm all of your bosses that I never agreed to be. That's pretty insane to me, but okay.

I said that shutting down feedback makes relationships inherently more abusive.

Dan, still stuck on the mention of Ana, asked Lav to explain what her criticisms of Destiny were.

Lav: [...] I don't know, I think that there were obviously–I think that you think that there are better ways that you could have handled that. I wasn't bringing that up as a gotcha. Something that

you haven't–

Destiny: I don't think there's a single thing I could have done differently. Wrong.

Me: Okay, that seems like an extreme statement.

[...]

Destiny: The problem that I had was you, on your stream last night, said, "Oh, she's like a totally normal person."

Lav: No, I said that she was obviously triggered by something.

Destiny: Hold on. Did you not say that she's just a normal person?

Lav: I think in her everyday life, she is normal.

Destiny: Dude, you are a professional dancer.

Dan: Snaky, is the term.

[...]

Dan: Just to be clear–you said that she was a good person, and she was correct in her assumptions of what she said about Steve.

Destiny pulled up the clip in question, where Lav was responding to an audience member who warned her against talking about Ana, lest she "go off" again.

In the clip, Lav said, "I think that Steven was a trigger for her, but I think she is a great normal girl, and I don't like the way you guys talk about her."

Lav: Like what? I literally told you exactly what I said. Like what? You got me.

Destiny: What is the implication? I don't understand–

Lav: What the fuck implication–I said don't come into my stream talking shit about Ana.

Destiny: When you point to a conflict between two people, and you say on one side, "I think that person is incredibly normal. Steven just triggered her, but she's super normal and great." What do you think is the implication there?

Lav: You're a trigger for her.

Destiny: What does that mean? Who was in the wrong?

Dan: You were in the wrong!

Lav: That's not how I think! That's how you think!

Destiny: I just want you to say that while you're on here saying "Destiny, you need to have the greatest responsibility in the world of mind-controlling your whole audience and protecting every single person," and then when it comes to Lav on stream, it's like "How am I supposed to know how anybody thinks, I'm not a human, tee hee hee." How can you have both positions?

Lav: I'm sorry, that is fully not what I fucking did. [...] And also to say that 11,000 people watching is the same thing as 200 people watching?

Destiny: It is, because you're making a comment about me and that's going to reverberate around my community.

Dan: Mm-hmm.

Lav: The comment I made about you is just that you triggered her? Come the fuck on.

Destiny: Somebody triggered somebody else. Where does the responsibility generally lie?

Dan: The trig-ee.

Lav: The triggerer? You didn't necessarily do it on purpose. I didn't say that it was malignant or that you did it with malintent. You obviously just did something that triggered her.

Dan: But he did something.

Lav: it could have been unbeknownst to you. That's how relationships work. We trigger each other.

Dan: But it was his fault.

Lav: There was an action that was nobody's fault.

Destiny: It was nobody's fault! Oh, Hallelujah!

Dan: This is why, sorry, I'd say this is snaky behavior.

Me: [...] This is what I'm talking about. When there's interpersonal conflict, like with Stardust, okay, I'm having a big fight with Stardust. On my stream, Stardust is not defined as a crazy mentally ill psychopath. There's no dogpile. There's no "Stardust is a terrible person." There's no "she's an insane, crazy stalker who can't let this go." I don't talk about her that way, and my community doesn't talk about her–

Destiny: Because I don't think Stardust acted that way. She definitely made a huge mistake, and it was definitely cringey so you're definitely right to call her on that. But–

Me: Stardust tweeted out a video of me exposing my stomach and then said it was my pubic hair and then blurred it so that you couldn't see what it was.

Destiny: Yeah, that's really bad, but that's far different than one to two years of extra online accusations.

Me: Okay, I'm not saying I'm absolving her. I'm just saying that in the way I talk about people, and the way people are defined on my stream, there doesn't have to be a bad guy.

Destiny: Okay, well, in my stream, when Ana like one week ago was saying I sexually abused her, I'm gonna go ahead and say there's a bad guy there. Okay, I think I might have a right to do that.

Me: Well Stardust a week ago was saying I sexually abused her. And I'm saying you don't have to do that.

Destiny: That's great. If Stardust said that about you after two years of stalking and harassing you, then I would say you probably could call that kind of a crazy person.

Me: I know I could.

Destiny: If you don't want to that's fine. But that's your platform. That's what you can do on your implant.

Me: [...] What Lav is saying is that there doesn't have to be an explanation that either you or Ana is a mentally ill terrible person.

Destiny: There kinda needs to be because if both sides are making strong claims, for you to just sit in the middle, like obviously delegitimizes one side more than the other.

Lav: I think you're thinking like, content-wise.

Destiny: No! I hate you! I hate that you just said that. [...] I'm sorry, I don't hate you. [...] It's not about content. Okay, if let's say that there was a scenario where one person locked somebody in a basement for five years and refused to feed them and beat the shit out of them every day. And then that person comes out, and somebody's like, "What do you think about that situation?" And you're like, "Man, you know, it was really complicated. And I think somebody just triggered the other one, but like, I wouldn't say that one person was the bad guy there." How do you think the person who was locked in the fucking basement would feel?

Before the stream had even ended, someone wrote a post in Destiny's subreddit titled "Fuck Lav. What a piece of shit."

The way she brought out that Ana stuff outta nowhere in the convo was so fucking slimy and scummy. Then Steven plays the clip of what she said about Ana yesterday and how she is a super normal and great person. Nah she's an actually terrible human being.

[...] She just said now that she didn't know this whole issue was this deep. Nah what the actual fuck. IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT, SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT AND DONT BRING IT UP ON STREAM YOU STUPID IDIOT. NAH I ACTUALLY HATE HER. Steven needs to perma cut ties with this scumfuck

(1.3K upvotes)

Link | Archive

A YouTube comment echoed the sentiment:

The way Lav treated the REDACTED [Ana] situation is precisely why men don’t feel comfortable talking about their abuse. We have two years worth of evidence showing that She-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named harassed Tiny, but because it’s a woman with a cute voice, it can be dismissed as ‘she was triggered’. I’m good without seeing Lav or Mr Gaslight on stream for a while after seeing them weaponise their own friend’s abuse.

(1.5K likes)

After the stream, Lav DMed Destiny:

Lav: AM I MISSING somethihng with the ana stuff i didnt realize it was so big

Destiny: SHE

STALKED ME

FOR TWO YEARS

AFTER WE HOOKED UP ONE TIME

AND TOLD PEOPLE I ABUSED

AND SEXUALLY ABUSED HER

ETC

ALL OFF OF ONE HOOK-UP

SHE IS ACTUALLY

UNRIONICALLY

THE MOST CRAZY PERSON I HAVE EVER INTERACTED WITH

IN MY ENTIRE LIFE

Sorry oops caps lock*

🙂

October 26, 2022: Lav recorded and posted a YouTube video titled "My Diary."

Speaking softly and sitting in her darkened living room, she said:

"I have spent the day downloading, deleting Twitter from my phone, redownloading it, deleting Reddit from my phone, redownloading it. It is so hard to not keep looking. On one hand I'm like, okay, what can I change? What can I change? What can I change? How can I quickly–how is there a quick fix? How can I quickly change public perception? How can I make everyone love me? How do I stop the bad bad bad bad?"

[...]

"Everyone always says, 'She's never been called out on her shit, that's why she's taking it so hard, she's lived such a privileged life.' And I don't owe you an explanation, or I don't owe you any personal information, but I will say this. My mother is an insecure narcissist. And I became the scapegoat. I became the problem, the bad thing that was poisoning the family. They sent me away when I was 14, pretended to have just one kid while I was gone for two years at my residential treatment center. And before that was years of neglect and abuse. Everything was my fault. I was evil. I was manipulative. Even if I was doing something like 'Mom, please stop doing this to me, stop hurting me,' in whichever way she was hurting me. Whether it be actually physically hurting me or emotionally hurting me when she was on drugs or something.

"Or there was this one time especially that I was having an emotional breakdown, I think because I wouldn't go to school, I couldn't go to school. I was too anxious. [...] I was like, 'Please, I can't go to school,' and I was sobbing and I was on the floor. [...] I was getting bullied really bad. They were dropping razor blades in my backpack when I passed them, my bullies. Eighth grade. Sorry, I just had a moment. I was shaking, 'Don't make me go to school, Mom,' and she pulled out her phone and started filming me and sort of laughing. Like, laughing at me in my most emotional state. And I feel like to some degree I'm creating this scenario, Freudian feedback looping on stream, which is interesting. [...] So if you think I do it, I got it from Mom. Just like Mom used to make, hee hee.

"She'd play it back and then she'd be like, 'Look, your eyes go black. You're so manipulative. You're doing this on purpose. You're cutting yourself to manipulate me. You're starving yourself to manipulate me.' Everything was–every inward turmoil I felt–was something that was done to her."

October 27, 2022: Aba called in to Destiny's stream to, while doing an impression of me, confront him about the ethics of bringing mentally ill people like Lav and me on stream–not out of concern for our well-being, but because it sets a bad example for his audience, who should learn to avoid people like us.

He asked Destiny to give a rebuttal.

Destiny: So for the first part that has to do with bringing quote-unquote mentally ill people on stream for their protection. If I feel like the person possesses sufficient adult faculty such that they can make their own decisions, I'm not going to superbaby them. So for instance, there have been people that I've dealt with in the past who it's like, okay, maybe this person doesn't need to be coming on stream anymore because they don't possess the necessary faculty to keep themselves safe. For people like Lav and mrgirl, they're both healthy, quote-unquote, adults, they should be able to make their own decision[s] about what's healthy for them and what's not healthy for them. [...] They're big boys, big girls, and the stakes for them are relatively low. If it got to the point where mrgirl or Lav started DMing me or making statements like, "I think I'm gonna kill myself, or I'm feeling super suicidal or stuff," then I might intervene and say, "Okay, well, I'm no longer treating you as an adult human, I'm going to treat you as a child and tell you you can't do this anymore, because you clearly can't engage in a level that's emotionally healthy for you or psychologically healthy for you."

A few minutes later, Aba admitted that he's addicted to hate-watching Lav. "Bruv, bruv. I'm bonding with the other nerds in chat because of how much we hate a particular person. It's so addictive. I was just sitting here being like, man, remember when you called her a dumb [bitch]? [...] And then I understood the viewer's experience, and I was like, I understand why they all got so hard off of that."

Destiny replied, "Yeah."

October 28, 2022: On stream, I gave Destiny an ultimatum–either guarantee your orbiters the right to defend themselves against dogpiles, or I'm leaving the orbit. Destiny refused, and I walked.

October 29, 2022: Lav joined a stream with Destiny, Dan, Darius, and NotSoErudite.

Dan: So why are you here, Lav? Because last I checked, you were taking a break until the third. But is that meaningless like everything else you post, or not? I don't know what to believe with you anymore. It's all bullshit, right? Nothing matters. You just lie to everyone.

Lav: Yeah I lied to everyone.

Dan: I mean you did.

Lav: Yeah, I mean, I definitely wanted to take a break until that long–

Dan: But you didn't have the willpower.

Lav: Something about the internet just sucks you back in.

Dan: Do you feel like mrgirl is going to come back to this community, abandoning his morals?

Lav: I don't think he's going to abandon his morals. I think he's just in [an] emotional place right now. And I also think that with time, honestly, I trust that Steven will also come around to what Max has said.

Destiny: Oh! Absolutely not!

Lav: What are your biggest grievances with what he said? What are the biggest things that you disagree with?

Destiny: The idea that I need to take some employer-employee relationship with the people that hang out in my community is–

Lav: I didn't necessarily agree with that. [...] This is my read, Steven, of you. And I could be wrong, but I think that when you say that you're an empathetic person, I think that you really can understand how someone feels, because you're very smart. But [...] definitionally, empathy is when you feel something that someone else feels, right? So I think that you're smart enough to understand how someone feels, but I don't think that you really feel it with them. So when a friend is coming to you–

Destiny: What's the point of this distinction?

Lav: Because when a friend is coming to you and is begging you to be more empathetic to them, you're saying, "Okay, I understand why you feel this way, I just don't care."

Destiny: Yeah, so oftentimes, when people are asking for empathy–

Lav: But then you say, "I have really high empathy levels," and then you get mad at me when I say that you have low empathy levels.

Destiny: Yeah, I understand. That's because people like you don't understand what empathy means. Or people–okay, stop.

Lav: No–

Destiny: Wait, no, I'm sorry, hold on, wait! I got triggered because you were phrasing something aggressively, but I'm not going to phrase my response aggressively, I'm sorry. Okay, give me a second. Okay.

Lav: I said that I could be wrong.

Destiny: No, no, you just your phrasing is very aggressive but that's okay, I'm going to be the bigger person. Okay. Oftentimes, when people say they want somebody to be empathetic towards them, that's not really what they mean. What they mean is, "I want that person to agree with me." And oftentimes when people say, "I feel like you're not being very empathetic towards me," what they mean to say is, "I feel like you don't agree with me." I can be very empathetic. I believe I can explain Max and your situation very precisely, with a high level of "oh, he understands." But I don't agree. And I feel like sometimes when people see that I don't agree with them, they mistake that for thinking I don't understand how they're feeling. That's my issue.

Lav: Okay. I can see how you see it that way. I think that, at least for me, speaking only for myself, what I really wanted to hear from you is like "fuck, that sucks, I'll be maybe more on guard about it." I mean, even though you did literally exactly what I wanted, which is like you cracked down on like, more ironic misogyny–

Destiny: Hold on–to be clear, wait, wait. [...] I need you to understand something, okay, very, very, very clearly. I will never change the way that I moderate my community for you. If you're giving me brownie points for that–I'm not, okay? I wasn't doing that to make you like, "Oh, well, Lav would be so much happier–"

Lav: I know you're so scared of looking like a simp, thank you for the clarification–

Destiny: No! Stop! You're–okay, [if] you're gonna call me a simp, I'm gonna call you the B-word. Do you understand?

(Lav laughed maniacally.)

[...]

Lav: I don't know why you're so scared of that word. It's a little strange, a little telling.

Destiny: Why are you so scared of bitch?

Lav: I'm not that scared of bitch. I was scared–the way that you said it took me a little bit by surprise.

Destiny: Okay, the way that you just said simp—you're essentially discrediting everything I'm saying.

Lav [laughing]: Okay, I'm not discrediting anything you're saying.

Destiny: You're minimizing.

Lav [laughing]: Okay, whatever, where were we? [...]

Destiny: No, I'm just saying that I've always been on guard for misogynistic things in my career. These are always things that I'm like actively looking at and trying to change over time and blah, blah, blah. It's not like "Oh my god, Lav would be so happy if I did this, let me change this."

Lav: But that's not what I want. So this is how in relationships for your friends or your colleagues even to feel understood when they bring you a grievance, you don't even have to necessarily agree with it, but the empathetic response would be like, "Fuck that really sucks, I can't really do anything for you, here's what I can do, like, listen, it's probably only going to take a couple days for this to blow over, try not to freak out too much about it." I never heard you say that to Max. And obviously you don't need to, right?

Darius: Why are you like this?

Lav: You don't need to, but when you're trying to foster healthy, empathetic communication with your friend, I think that's what Max probably would have wanted, to not spiral out of control. It's certainly what I would have wanted. Even if you don't follow our advice, it's just nice for you to, especially in front of the audience, be like, "Fuck, I think I actually can understand that," so your audience doesn't think that we're also at odds.

Darius: When Steven is literally going and saying to him, "Hey, you just gotta chill dude, it sucks that you feel like you fucking can't type on the sub, it sucks that you fucking feel like you can't defend yourself, just chill and over time, things will get back to normal." [...] What do you think he's fucking doing? [...]

Lav: No, I never heard that. So basically, Steven's like a debater, right? So he's like, "No, none of this is happening. And I don't care what you think. And–"

Destiny: Hold on, just be careful. Wait, hold on. Lav, be careful that you don't talk about things you're totally clueless about. I've never said that. Of course I see what's happening. And of course I know what's happening. There's a lot of people typing bad shit about him on the sub. And now he got banned, so he can't even defend–I know what's happening. I've never denied that. Just saying. Good.

NotSoErudite: Empathy doesn't mean yes-manning people necessarily either, right? Like what you're talking about–

Lav: I don't think that's what I explained.

NotSoErudite: Well, you said that really sucks, I understand, and then you basically said, maybe if you had done some of that, and be like, hey, just take a break, then maybe he wouldn't have spiraled out of control. But it's like, first of all, the fact that he spiraled out of control is exclusively and only on him. That's his emotions and his responsibility. [...]

Lav: Yeah, I think that's what I just explained. Like, you don't even need to see it the same way as him or really change anything. I just think that the communication is really important, especially with someone like Max who is very emotional. And you're not gonna get anywhere unless you're at least, not validating his worldview, but validating his emotions. And that's just like the trick of the trade with people like Max.

Destiny: Yeah, I'm not here for it. Like, that's just not something I ever care to do.

Lav: No, exactly. [...] You got mad at me when I said this to Max, though, because I was like, Steven's not gonna take care of you. He's not gonna do this for you.

Destiny: Because the way that you phrase things is incredibly one-sided. Let me show you, okay, let me help you. Let me demonstrate, there are two ways that I could phrase something. Okay, here we go. "I don't think that you should be friends with Sam, because it seems like you need a certain level of emotional care or emotional support that Sam is either unwilling or unable to provide, so you should find somebody different." [...] That's one way I could say it. This is what you said, okay? "I'm not going to teach Sam how to treat me like a normal human. I'm not going to teach him how to treat me politely or respectfully." That's what you were saying.

Destiny asked the audience to find the clip in question, which they did, and played it back. In the recording, Lav said: "I'm less interested in teaching him how to treat me and more interested in having relationships with people who already know how to respect me."

Destiny: Kind of makes it sound like I'm disrespectful. I think that's the easy takeaway there.

Lav: Yeah, I meant, like, respect the way that I communicate the things that I need in a friendship, that's like a very normal statement.

[...]

Dan: You're weaselly? You know that, right?

Lav defended herself at first, but then explained (ironically) that over-explaining yourself is a common response to emotional trauma from an abusive parent. NotSoErudite said she has no ill will towards Lav, but that both she and I have a toxic communication style.

The questions of whether Destiny should recognize the power imbalances with his orbiters or whether he cares about their feelings were not revisited.

November 2, 2022: Lav joined an aimless stream with Destiny, Dan, Aba, Chaeiry, Papa Gut, and Brittany from Politically Provoked.

Lav stayed for about five hours, spilling about personal topics such as vaginal hygiene, her tattoos (including the word "faggot" on the inside of her lip), her feelings about her body, yet another debate about whether she is a hypocrite for doing sex work after disparaging it, and her open relationship with her husband.

She was lightly bullied throughout by nearly everyone. For example, Destiny said of her confidence in her body: "I hope you enjoy it for the next five years and you want to kill yourself when you start to age and you realize looks are all you've got, Lav"

Lav joked back, "I want to kill myself now."

At one point, she told a story about comedian Gabriel Gundacker forcing her to perform analingus on him–an account she'd shared publicly in 2021 on TikTok.

Aba and Destiny snickered uncontrollably in response, and Destiny jokingly threatened to ban Aba for making light of the alleged sexual assault. Lav reassured them, "No, it's funny, it's funny."

Aba continued to joke about it, saying: "There was a man out there getting his ass ate, doing terrible things."

Destiny: Stop. Oh my god.

Aba: Destiny, you know what's crazy? Here's something that I admitted that was fucked up. Even in a really fucked up situation you can sometimes find a bit of like weirdness or humor to it. Like if I find out someone's a serial killer that's a terrible thing. If I find out they killed everybody by injecting them with a bunch of mustard in their stomach and then like, eat ketchup out their ass. I'm gonna have a huge laugh.

Destiny: Jesus Christ.

Aba: No, no, no, I'm serious, I'm gonna laugh for a few days.

Destiny: I understand, but imagine one of the murder victims' family members was in the room.

Aba: I would never do that if Lav herself didn't say she enjoyed it. So I think if she said she enjoyed it–

Destiny: You're saying she enjoyed being raped?

Aba: No, that's what she said. That's not what I said. Hold on. [...] Lav, Lav, Lav, let me make sure I understand, unless I misunderstood. Did you not say you enjoyed it?

Lav: No, I did not enjoy it.

[...]

Aba: I definitely remember you saying something positive about it? Am I incorrect?

Lav: No, literally, no, it was low-key traumatic.

[...]

Papa Gut: She was making a joke out of it. [...]

Destiny: She was coping with humor. And you turned her cope into comedy for you.

Aba: Listen, listen, if she was trolling–and that wasn't clear to me so I don't give a fuck. I don't feel bad. I own it, I own it, 'cause that's what she said. [...] if they want to make jokes about it and be able to look at it in a positive light, then the people around them should be able to do the same.

Papa Gut: Um, I guess, I don't know.

Aba: [...] If she says no, that actually made me uncomfortable, that's a different discussion. I was under the understanding that she–I didn't know she was trolling earlier. So if she's trolling, then I'll own this.

Destiny: Oh, my God. It's just like the whole mood of the room changed.

Aba: Shut up. Destiny! You joined in. It's such a typical jujitsu move, where you literally added punch lines to my [inaudible]. And so I appreciate you, but you're in on this joke. You're in the credits. So if I'm going down, I'm dragging you down with me.

Destiny: I was talking about how traumatic it was, that this guy probably had rape training. It was a totally different circumstance. I was saying that this guy was a professional rapist.

(Two weeks later, on November 16, Aba and Preach would upload a video about Lav to their YouTube channel with nearly two million subscribers, titled "@Hasan False Allegat*ons." The video would detail Lav's contradictory accounts that Hasan Piker had sex with her friend when she was 17 (said in Discord chats), and her later claim that her friend was over 18 (made in a Patreon post about her reasons for leaving Destiny's orbit)).

In the same video, Aba and Preach mocked Lav's account of being sexually assaulted by Gabriel Gundacker. In 2021 she claimed he forced her to perform analingus by pushing and holding her head down while she was already performing oral sex. Aba and Preach mockingly recreated their imagined version of the assault, erroneously assuming Lav had claimed Gundacker had been facing away from her (and on his hands and knees) when allegedly forcing her to perform the act.

Aba said, "I don't give a fuck, let's laugh–yo, laugh at this one. She's made up two times, you think the first one's real? She's made up two times, why should you trust anything this bitch says?"

At around the same time, Aba and Preach unlisted their video mocking Ana from the previous year, titled "'WHY WOULD YOU CALL ME PRINCESS' | How crazy women hold men hostage." According to Ana, after the video had accumulated a million views over the course of a year, Destiny asked them to take it down.)

November 6, 2022: Destiny had found a black conservative woman named Annalicia who liked to broadly criticize black men. She didn't last too long in the orbit, but for a few weeks Destiny enjoyed pitting her against various combinations of black creators, including Aba, who would often become incredibly angry and upset.

In a debate the previous day, while Destiny giggled, she'd screamed at another black woman, TreeOfLogic, "You can be these niggas' mammies, I will not be!"

Destiny's audience spoke about her and Lav in similar ways–Annalicia was insufferable, but was also learning to listen and be less aggressive. Destiny was teaching her how to communicate.

Lav joined the stream on November 6 partly to defend Annalicia, but also because Kanye West and Kyrie Irving had recently made comments broadly perceived as antisemitic, and the topic of black-Jewish race relations was on people's minds, and Lav is part Jewish.

Lav and Aba got into an argument about whether anti-Jewish sentiment among black people is taken too seriously. Aba argued that another Holocaust was unlikely and that Jews should move on the same way black people should move on from slavery and segregation. Lav countered that we should still be sensitive to the generational trauma of both groups regardless of their current circumstances.

Aba said he would like to be able to criticize a Jewish person without it being called antisemitism, and that mainstream media won't permit people to even acknowledge that Jews are disproportionately wealthy, let alone talk about why.

Lav: The problem is [...] when you're talking about Jewish wealth, when you're talking about the "what," there's the implicit shadow of the "why," which can be hateful, so you need to be sensitive about it [...].

Counterpoints, a white ex-cop and a streamer, said that Jews are wealthy because self-preservation has become a Jewish value. He talked about the history of Jews defaulting to usury when Christians were forbidden from banking, the formation and near-destruction of Israel, and how these events have shaped Jewish culture today.

Aba said: As a pro-Palestinian individual, I don't want to listen to two pro-Israeli individuals just go on and on about Israel's right to exist.

Lav: No, this is a problem–you said two pro-Israel individuals, who are those pro–are you saying that because I'm Jewish? You think I'm pro-Israel? This is a problem, Aba.

Destiny: I'm pro-Israel.

Lav: What a strange thing to assign to an American Jewish person. [...] It's not strange, but what it is, is it's fucked up. This is lowball antisemitism and it's fucked up and you need to call it out.

Aba did not respond.

Later in the stream, during a heated argument between Annalicia and the other black streamers, Lav jumped in to defend Annalicia.

Aba: Lav, just shut up and let them have the conversation. [...] All the black people want you to shut up.

Lav: Aba, you're a piece of shit. You're an antisemitic piece of shit.

Lav received a DM from Destiny's main Discord mod, RTBALOL, who has the power to ban anyone from Destiny's Discord server and thus from the stream.

RTBALOL: Just because Destiny is being a anti-confrontation beta doesn't mean you can just drop shit like that when we both know you don't fucking mean it. I see right through you and you pull some shit like that again I will do it if Destiny won't

He attached a screenshot of a filled-out ban form, ready to boot Lav for an hour with the click of a button.

The reason for the ban was included: "Weaponising her jewishness to be racist towards the black members of the community."

Lav: he called me a zionist

because im jewish

and kept dogwhistling

what the fuck are you saying

RTBALOL: I know what he did, and it wasn't ok. But you know your words mean something too.

(The previous day, RTBALOL had posted in Destiny's public chat: LAV THE CONVERSATION DESTROYER CONGRATS YOU STUPID FUCKING LOSER GO FUCKING TAKE SOME MORE NOT NUDES TO POST TO YOUR DAMN TWITTER AT LEAST SOMEONE ENJOYS THAT, BECAUSE ALL YOU DOING IS BEING A DOWNER ON THIS CONVO

When Lav sent Destiny a screenshot of the chat message, he replied: THAT'S RTBA HE IS HIS OWN PROUD BEAR TALK TO HIM

Lav sent back a question mark, to which Destiny did not respond.)

November 7, 2022: Lav and I did a stream together that was supposed to be about misogyny, but quickly turned into a heart-to-heart about what we'd experienced during our time in Destiny's world.

I told her that becoming a father figure to her had made it crystal clear to me that I needed to leave Destiny's orbit. Seeing myself get set up to be dogpiled again and again hadn't been enough to push me over the edge, but seeing it happen to her was unbearable, and I would not enable her abuse any more than I already had.

Lav cried and said she appreciated my kindness, despite it feeling weird because she wasn't used to it.

I felt a small shift in the titanic guilt that had settled in once I'd recognized my own culpability, and figured I was heading in the right direction–out.

After the stream, Lav and Ana had the following exchange over DMs:

Lav: Hi I’d really like all of the conversations we have about Steven be kept completely private

Until and unless we both decide what we want to do with the information.

I’d like to share my situation with him with you

Ana: I will absolutely keep it private. I would not violate your privacy and I would ask the same of you too <3

Lav: Thank you ❤️

So Steven and I had a sexual relationship, of course. I’m realizing quickly he has with all of his female orbiters

Literally all of them

And I’m trying to understand the dynamic I was in

Because now he’s actively like abusing me on stream and letting his community abuse me

And I’m realizing he’s just doing this, to every woman who comes in

Even Melina spoke up about hating me

Weirdest scenario

Ana: I came to realize that too and it saddened me... but yeah pretty much his female "orbiters" he's sexting with or had a sexual relationship with. I think Erudite might be the only exception but I KNOW he wants to hook up with her. I know him well at this point, let's just say lol

I'm sorry you're going through this

you're not the only one

[...]

Ana: I know about pretty much most of them I think... But I've been around for a while. And Steven and I still sext. But I do wonder if he shits on me to people behind my back... like you for example. Because he did kinda shit on you to me privately. Please don't say anything though

Lav: I’m sorry WHAT

you still sext?

Ana: we never stopped

Lav: What the fuck

Ana: I know, it's unhealthy

Lav: Holy shit

Ana: I probably shouldn't lol

he keeps trying to plan for us to hang out and stuff too

Lav: No you absolutely shouldn’t he’s still calling you a stalker

Ana: WHAT

Lav: What the fuck

What did he say about me

Ana: Oh god he really is a two faced liar great

Lav: What the actual fuck

Ana: yeah I figured if he does this to you, he's probably doing it to me

he was saying that it's enjoyable watching other people shit on you :/ he was kinda laughing about it. I'm sorry. I always defend you

Lav: Holy shit.

This is actually insane

Ana: He really is manipulative and a liar. You gotta remember this about him.

Lav: You can’t be sexting him.

But also how could you not

Him and his whole community convinced you he did nothing wrong

This is an insane cycle

I’m like actually reeling

Ana: I'm gonna be honest... It's gonna be extremely hurtful to hear that he's still shitting on me in private

cuz he's so sweet to me all the time

and convinces me that he's always defending me

[...]

Lav: It’s hard because Steven is like a likable/lovable person

Ana: That's what Steven does: he uses people

Lav: So this feels very strange

Like…maybe it’s not so bad

He’s just impulsive

It’s not on purpose

He’s hurting

And then you realize that’s the design

Ana: I mean, he's admitted it to me many times. He's a selfish person and he does what he wants. He's not hurting for sure.

I mean you know that he can't feel love right? Did he tell you that?

He doesn't really feel much

Lav: I don’t think it’s that hard to prove

If the public knew you guys were still sexting

Jesus Christ

Ana: You think?

Idk...

Lav: I was like whatever I’ll just see myself out

And then saw him talk to Erin

The college student

Ana: His ex Erin?

Lav: No

Ana: Oh different

Lav: He went to the college and did the change my mind thing

One of the girls was cute and smart and they got connected and she’s become a fast orbiter

And she’s young

Ana: I fucking hate that

Lav: And I’m like holy fuck he just got an interview with lex Friedman

He’s going to blow up

And fuck more fans

And do this

Ana: yeah....

Lav: We’re watching Weinstein happen

Ana: Thank GOD nothing ever happened with Jadeisaboss

Lav: I don’t know what to do

Ana: me neither... most of the time I just cope and hope that he's not actually fucking all these people.

Lav: And he is

Ana: yep

Lav: I think I’m gonna talk to chaeiry

Ana: oh god don't

Lav: I know

She’s very loyal to him

Ana: because of her BPD

I hate to say that

but it's true

Lav: No I get it

Ana: you can see how she puts him on a pedestal in this abnormal way

Lav: Yes

Ana: and she hates anyone who he has issues with

Lav: But also she’s an orbiter he let people abuse

And fucked

So I’m like.

….

Ana: you can certainly try if you want but there are others like Badbunny and Denims (tho Denims and he never fucked). Unfortunately people hate Badbunny but the same thing happened to her

Can't believe he's still calling me a stalker wtf

Lav: I brought you up on the panel a week ago bringing up his interpersonal problems and the subreddit went insane

And he did nothing

Stalker, abuser,

He said it publically that you made his life hell

Ana: how the hell did I abuse him lmao

Lav: You didn’t

He just has to be the good guy

I’m sorry I’m like spiraling rn

Ana: He made my life a living hell actually

it's okay

I was suicidal from all the hate and harassment tbh

Lav: You don’t have to do anything. If you want to mobilize, I will. You have my support and my story, and we have max and I will get into contact with badbunny

What’s the story with badbunny I don’t really know

Ana: Same deal. He lead [sic] her to believe they were more serious to sleep with her and then let his community harass and abuse her and do nothing about it. She also claims he was abusive to her

She and I talked

Kaceytron knows how he is too

she once reached out to me

Lav: What the fuck

He’s just gonna keep doing this

Ana: yeah he will because he likes it

and he's charismatic af and likeable sorta

damn this is pretty upsetting

not gonna lie

would we be able to chat with Max? like a 3 way call?

Lav: I think so yea. I think I’ll reach out to badbunny first

Ana: yeah no problem

Badbunny is ALWAYS shitting on him

Lav: Did you want to reassemble like compiled evidence, or is it all gone

Ana: or sorry KiraChats she's known as now

I honestly feel like it won't matter

Lav: Understandable

Ana: ppl probably figure we're still sexting and nobody cares

[his audience] seems to think I'm some abuser

Lav: I don’t think anyone knows and would be fucking shocked

Idk if you saw max talking about how Steven doesn’t do anything about the abuse from his fans

Ana: yeah

Lav: But that argument, mixed with all the sexual relationships he had

Has*

Looks really fucking bad.

Ana: But to dgg, his sociopathic fans, it doesn't look that bad I don't think.... idk

like I tend to think most of his dgg fanbase are basically sociopaths

they sure act like it

Lav: He’d lose all his orbiters

Ana: trust me, he would not

Lav: Trust me, he’d lose the biggest ones.

Ana: others have tried to out this already idk

maybe

like Bob7 tried

and Steven got him cancelled

and he disappeared

Lav: Christ

Ana: Lav he will destroy your life if you come out against him

he's told me stories of what he's done to his exes

Lav: He told me also

Ana: did he? Damh

damn*

Lav: The story of gaslighting his ex with his old boss

Ana: yesss

and got her fired

Lav: And how it made him like horny

Yes

Ana: yeah Lav he gets off on this shit

like literally gets off on it

GOD the sexting he does…

he has like…. revenge kinks…

fuck I feel bad telling you this

Lav: This is strange for me sorry I don’t know how to react to this information and I don’t know how to feel

Ana: it's okay I'm sorry to unload on you

Lav: No no go ahead

Ana: I'm not sure it really is relevant but he does like to stir shit up intentionally and he loves drama

Lav: Yes

Ana: but you probably knew that

Lav: It’s obvious yes

Ana: what happened to Dan? Is he still around being an asshole?

do you happen to have any links to those subreddit posts about me btw?

Lav: Yes he is

And no I don’t and forgot when they were

You can probably just word search stalker or abuser

Ana: thanks

ugh Dan

never goes away lol

Lav: Do you have any screenshots of Steven talking about me

Ana: it was only once and it was today during the chudlogic chat

Lav: Hm

In public view

?

Ana: no in private to me

ignore my stream btw. I'm just going to be talking about the abuse AGAIN which nobody seems to care about

nothing that you told me will be mentioned don't worry

Lav: Please don’t bring me up. At all.

I haven’t decided if I want to go public.

Ana: I won't don't worry

did you know he threatened to leak my nude pics and nobody cared

I even have the screenshot

[...]

Lav: Please send me every weird screenshot you have

I feel like I’ve made it up

Ana: you haven't made it up, I see it too and others do too

I don't really have much proof though because a bunch of stuff I deleted since I've been trying to move on from it :/

Lav: Yea I get that

Ana: I'm sorry you're feeling that way <3

it helps to talk to other people or at least people who are understanding

Lav: Yea. It does. Makes me feel a bit less crazy

The same night, Lav and I talked as well:

Lav: I still think he’s the good guy and I’ve done something wrong

I feel like I’m doing something wrong by even telling you about how I feel about it

Me: Yeah I can tell.

I am sensing flashes of you feeling like I put this in your head.

Or you put it in mine. Or both.

Lav: Yes.

Me: Like a shared delusion.

Lav: Yes.

Even with Ana too. All people Steven has said are crazy and abusive

I’m worried I’m like the girl victimizing herself like the aziz ansari situation

Me: You feel guilty for even having the feelings in the first place, but also feel bad about feeling guilty.

Lav: LOL

Yes

I wonder what the next thing he’ll say to me is

Chaeiry came on his stream today and was his attack dog

Part of me really wants to talk to her about the dynamic but she’s also horrible

Me: Yeah she is really deep in it.

I will try to talk to her last.

Lav: Probably a good idea

Me: I want you to export your discord chat with him.

He is going to delete all of his DMs as soon as he hears I'm looking into this.

(A few days later he deleted all of his DMs to Lav.)

[...]

Lav: I’m in this weird in between place where every 30 minutes I get really angry and want to like tweet or say something about it and then immediately I feel guilty or sad or like I’ve made it all up. And I’ll be honest like, going through all of my messages with him…..it looks like I did. But then I remember how often he says “if anyone wants to pull up screenshots of our logs, they can” he prepares for this. He’s 7 steps ahead of all of us. The design is to discredit us if we do come forward. So we have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

I’ve made the personal decision to not participate in his streams anymore.

And I’m talking to all the women who do, just so they have a safe space to go if they’re uncomfortable but not pressing them to cut ties.

Me: Yes, the design is to discredit you before you even come forward. Women in DGG are discredited systematically on the topic of Steven or anything personal about themselves.

Lav: Yes. Exactly.

The Ana affect

Any woman who comes on is immediatley [sic] compared to Ana.

Everyone’s waiting for the next crazy to come out.

Me: Yes. That's why this can't go anywhere without her. She can prove that he's been lying this entire time.

Lav: Honestly this feels a bit hopeless, even if we did end up coming forward; his audience hates women. He’s primed them to hate women, and these are already men who struggle with women.

His audience will not care.

Nobody will care.

November 9, 2022: Destiny reacted on stream to my November 7 talk with Lav in a segment titled "Destiny Reacts To MrGirl And Lav Crying Together."

When Destiny heard me tell Lav I'd left his community for her, he said, "I'm not saying that this is necessarily abusive, but, 'I left that community so that you could be smart enough to leave that community [...],' that seems a little weird, but okay. I don't know about that one."

In the video, Lav said: "I don't know what I'm going to do. I think I'll leave but I don't want to make a stink of it."

I replied, "That's impossible."

Lav: Yeah. I do like Steven a lot.

Me: Me too. He's a lovable guy.

Destiny, reacting, said: "But I'm an abuser."

After a silence, noticing my eyes were wet, Destiny said, "How is he crying? Did I miss something?"

In the video, I told Lav, "You don't have to leave."

Destiny cackled, and said, "Okay, hold on. I am so sorry to say this. I don't know if Melina's watching right now. Is Melina here?"

Melina was indeed watching. (Earlier she'd written in the audience chat: I think I hate lav more and more everyday and I always think it can’t be possible to hate her more)

Now she wrote that she was still there, and asked why Destiny wanted to know.

Destiny saw her message and said, "Okay, nevermind. I'll just keep watching. [...] I don't want to give away my manipulation tactics, okay, I don't want to give away my abuser tactics."

Goaded on by his audience, he decided to explain the tactic he thought I'd been using–one where you plant an idea in someone's head and then immediately disown the idea. He claimed to have stopped doing this back in his twenties, but I believe he still does it all the time.

In fact, he'd already used the tactic in that very stream ("I'm not saying that this is necessarily abusive, but…"), and, ironically, was about to do it again to sell his accusation that I was doing it.

Drawing a diagram of the manipulation tactic in MS Paint, Destiny said: "If you're trying to convince somebody to do something that they're kind of half in on, that you kind of want them to do, the goal–usually when people are trying to seal the deal, if this is like [...] acceptance, and this is like 'I'm fully 100%,' the goal of most people is to push them all the way to, "I need you to be fully on board with this." [...] But if you want to be really manipulative, the real goal is to have them emotionally roped in enough that you get them right here [at the threshold of agreement]. And as soon as you know you've got them, you pull back completely, and then you go hands off. And then you let them argue the rest of the way so that they feel like they're the ones that are moving themselves this way. And it lets you remove all responsibility from the decision later.

"[...] Let's say that we want to have sex with somebody without a condom, okay? So the non-manipulative way would be like, 'I really want to fuck you, [...] it'll be a lot of fun, it'll feel better.' [...] The manipulative way of doing it would be like, 'I think that we should have sex without a condom,' and they're like, 'Uh, maybe,' and you're like, 'I think it would be really cool, I think it'd be a lot of fun,' right? And they're like, 'Yeah, maybe yeah.' And then you're like, 'Or maybe not. I don't want to make you uncomfortable. Maybe it's too much of a risk. Maybe we're not being responsible right now.' And you already got them over the hump, and now they're gonna fight you on it. [...] And the more you kind of pull back–not too much–but as long as you've already got them there, they will slingshot themselves off of the deep end. And the nice thing about this form of manipulation is that if something bad happens later on, you are unimpeachable. Because now if they're like, 'Fuck, I got herpes, AIDS, I'm pregnant,' and they come to you and they like, 'Fuck, why did we fuck without a condom?" Then you're like, 'Well, I thought it was a bad idea. I didn't know we should, but you really pushed for it,' [...] and now they've got full responsibility."

A viewer wrote in the chat: how often do you find yourself doing this

Destiny continued, "How often do you find yourself doing this? Never anymore. But this is a common early twenties, mid-twenties Destiny behavior. This is a super easy form of manipulation 101 [...]. It's such an effective way of shirking all responsibility for a decision and it's a really effective way of making the other person think that they're having an idea that is more their own than it actually is. Sorry, it was really funny [Max] to pull back there. He might not be doing that, by the way. I might just be–that was all bullshit that I said, and none of that meant anything and I'm just a memer. But that's kind of what it felt like."

November 11, 2022: If you don't know this by now, Ana and Lav have a tendency to blurt things out. I'd already been moving as quickly as I could to secure as much evidence against Destiny as possible before he could scare people out of talking to me, but I knew time was pretty limited.

Not only did it feel wrong to tell these women to keep silent, I knew it was pointless and would only make me feel bad when they spilled their guts anyway.

All in one day, Ana did a stream about Destiny, Lav did a stream about Destiny, and Shaelin, my girlfriend, did an interview with ChudLogic (who was my friend at the time) in which she called out his unethical treatment of me and his other orbiters.

Lav streamed her live reaction to Shaelin's interview and felt empowered to criticize Destiny.

One chatter asked her: What do you think about Destiny trying to sleep with every woman he brings on?

Lav said, "What do you think I think about it? How do we treat men in positions of power like this? Does it remind you of any stories that were in the news?"

Later, a chatter said she'd alluded to Destiny being a Harvey Weinstein–Lav flatly denied it, yet doubled down: "I did not allude to him being a Harvey Weinstein. But if the shoe fuckin' fits. I didn't even say those fuckin' words but if you're thinking about it."

Lav revealed that Destiny was still sexting Ana, and also that she and Destiny had a sexual relationship. (She later stated on Twitter that they didn't have sex. When asked for clarification, Lav replied, "He serviced me." The 350-upvote post about this tweet was removed from Destiny's subreddit.)

Destiny's fans alerted one another about the stream in his offline chat, Discord, and subreddit, and soon Lav was speaking to an audience of 2,000 angry viewers.

They made the following highly-upvoted posts on Destiny's subreddit:

"Destiny, one day Lav will accuse you of Rape, the real kind."

(2.1K upvotes)

Link | Archive

"teehee I take it back XD oopsie"

[This was in reference to a public message Lav wrote in her Discord after the stream, which read: I retract the Weinstein statement but I want everyone to think about what's okay in relation to sleeping with coworkers, employees, or colleagues.]

(2.0K upvotes)

Link | Archive

"When someone implies I'm Weinstein 😀 When someone leaks my 'servicing' 😀 When someone says I am a bad friend 😀 When someone always uses the misogyny card on me when I push back against them 😀 When someone brings up [REDACTED] against me 😀 When I try to rebuild the bridge over and over 🦶🔫😀"

(340 upvotes)

Link | Archive

As discussed in Ana's section of this report, I saw the hate mob forming around Lav and begged Ana to give me a recent screenshot of Destiny sexting her, which I thought would give Lav's claims (and my soon-to-be-exposed investigation) legitimacy. I got Lav and Shaelin in a group call with Ana and we all begged her for the proof. Ana said she would feel guilty for betraying Destiny's trust and urged me to go forward without the proof, but I thought the impact of a screenshot would be significantly greater than even an admission from Destiny. She eventually agreed.

However, looking back, I think going public with the screenshot actually made things worse for Lav. I did not understand Destiny's fans or my fellow orbiters, despite having worked closely with them for a year.

I'd told both Ana and Lav that I sincerely believed ChudLogic and Ahrelevant would take Destiny to task for sexting Ana privately while smearing her as a crazy stalker in public. The phrase I'd settled on, "sexual misconduct," was even ChudLogic's idea. I thought, even if they were a bit self-interested–even if they were only self-interested–distancing themselves from Destiny would be the smart thing to do.

(It’s worth noting that in 2021, ChudLogic was accused of “grooming” by a 17-year-old he’d sexted with who’d told him she was 18. She tweeted out screenshots of their DMs, despite, according to her tweets, ChudLogic asking her “to promise never to leake [sic] this stuff so his YT career can continue.” Destiny defended ChudLogic on stream, stating that the DMs were normal flirting and that she’d misused the term “grooming.”)

Deleted | Archive

My napkin math was utterly naive and wrong. The Destiny-sphere calculus said the smart thing to do would be to attack Lav, and so they did.

In Destiny's own "I'm Nuclear" stream that day, he portrayed himself and Lav as victims of my manipulation.

"After a few months ago, I had a tumultuous interpersonal thing that happened, and I was like, okay, well, here's a lesson, I think that I've learned for myself. I'm going to reach out and talk to more people offline, to try to have more like human friendly-ish type relationships. Because that's what human beings do. Maybe it'd be good for me. And one of those people was our good friend, Max. And another one of those people, before she became a streamer, was Lav. I spoke with her a few months ago, she wasn't really into the whole streaming thing, so I didn't really think much of it. It's like, oh, random person I've spoken to before, whatever. And, yeah, yikes. Where do we even begin?"

Destiny has consistently framed me (and Lav) coming out against him as a personal betrayal. By shifting his audience's focus away from power differentials and ethics in professional relationships among streamers, he can rebrand this report as a high school yearbook of petty interpersonal drama.

"I don't actually think that Lav or Ana or Shaelin are that much in the wrong. I think that Max is actually like a full-on narcissistic manipulator who is abusive to every single person in his orbit. Probably worse than any other person I've ever seen in my entire life. I kind of got that inkling over the Shaelin videos, but truthfully, I'm willing to extend like, well, maybe there's stuff I'm not seeing, maybe there's something I don't understand. [...] But especially watching him interact with Lav on his stream, and then seeing how Lav has changed her disposition, and then seeing the types of messages that Ana sends me now, and then hearing about what Shaelin is saying on ChudLogic's stream–now I understand way more like what's going on, that Max has a certain impression. He's able to emotionally abuse or gaslight or manipulate people around him into feeling a certain way, and he draws them in in such an unbelievably effective way that he can get them to feel almost whatever he wants them to."

[...]

"[...] you had Lav today alluding to the fact that I guess I'm Harvey Weinstein on stream because I have sex with a lot of people that come through my community, which I do. But the way that I always saw it going in my head, is if anybody ever tried to MeToo me, all I would ever say to that person is, 'Hey, listen, you think I was improper? Okay, well, leak all of our DMs, or if you don't want to, I will leak our entire DM history.'"

While he does tell people they are free to leak his personal information, he frequently retaliates against those who do. Additionally, he deleted all of his DMs to me and Lav as soon as he found out I was writing about him, and he'd already deleted his DMs to Ana several months prior.

"Because [...] I usually have really candid conversations about my expectations for people sexually or whatever. So for instance, these are messages that I sent back to Lav in August, early August. [...] 'Oh, hey, just because you've been on stream more and whatnot–I know we've had some kind of sexual conversations in the past, but you being on my stream or the way that I interact with you never has anything to do with any of that kind of stuff, just being clear on that.' She says something. And I say, 'I'm just saying don't feel like any of your interactions are contingent on anything like that. You're fine doing whatever, just don't feel like I'm keeping you around for anything related to sex, etc.'"

Here he explicitly described how he gives himself plausible deniability in his sexual relationships with small streamers, and quoted the messages where he did so with Lav–but he also left out Lav's response (Oh so you don’t want to fuck me) and what he wrote back (stfu obviously duh).

"I also think it's really gross that despite me and Ana's past shit, Ana and I have been relatively chill. I think for like the past year, I haven't had any complaints about her, no problems or whatever. Obviously, I think she did bad shit in the past, she thinks I've done bad shit in the past–I haven't really had any problems with her for like, I don't know, for like a year or more. But Max has been talking to her a lot in the background now, and I noticed that she's starting to echo a lot of what Max has told her, to me and to other people in DMS. So basically her, Max and Lav have been running around in DMS in the background, basically talking to a ton of people to try to see if there are people that I have sexually abused or manipulated or anything like that."

Relatively chill is not how I would describe Destiny's relationship with Ana in the year prior to November 2022. Six months earlier, Destiny had directed his audience to participate in harassing and doxxing Ana on KiwiFarms–two days after sexting her–prompting her to tell him that he'd ruined her life.

She also said the following things about him on her own streams:

August 28, 2022: "It just sucks because it's like I thought there was a ban on talking about me, especially calling me crazy, so why can't he keep his community under control? It just is not right, and Dan is trying to literally find out every little thing he can on me apparently."

September 4, 2022: "It's not imagined abuse. My therapist will not talk with Destiny. She refuses. I wanted her to but she refuses because she thinks it would be bad."

September 24, 2022: "You can look it up, the CDC even defines it as–the mere threat of having

nude pictures released is itself a form of sexual abuse. Yes, you heard that right, it's sexual abuse. It's called image-based sexual abuse. IBSA."

October 12, 2022: "We were past it, but destiny keeps on being an abusive prick to me."

October 28, 2022: "I've told Destiny a bunch of times to stop treating me like that, to stop with the whole crazy-making bullshit, and I mean I would also like for people in DGG to stop, too."

November 8, 2022: "I just wish Destiny would stop being so abusive to me all the time."

In Destiny's hastily-formed new narrative, I was the real culprit behind Ana's accusations, as well as Lav's.

He also publicly shared the DMs between me and another content creator, Dooby, who I'd become friendly with since I started streaming in 2022. Dooby said that he'd pretended to share my concerns about Destiny in order to get more information about my investigation.

Me: Hey man I didn't realize I never wrote back to this. But I have to ask you for something.

Do you know Denims or Kirachats/Badbunny?

Dooby: Sorta. I've interacted with both. Denims more recently and Kira like...3 years ago?

So if you're trying to get in touch I'm not sure how much help I can give you

Me: They both think I'm aligned with Destiny and are hesitant to talk to me. I'm trying to get in touch with them to talk about a disturbing pattern of abuse of female streamers in DGG.

Off the record.

Dooby: Hmm. Some of my mods might be closer to them than I am. I can put feelers out and see if either would be willing to come on for an AMA. That'll open up a path of communication I can use to push them your way.

Me: Thank you. I don't know how you feel about Destiny personally but I am hearing some disturbing shit.

Dooby: I think he's entertaining but any interaction I've had with him over the years has just been networking for debates or server outreach 🤷‍♂️ I don't know him personally beyond that.

Me: Okay.

Dooby: But I know he's got a reputation of sliding into the DMs of female streamers, especially new ones.

Me: I think things are going to get turbulent. Assuming these women don't all chicken out.

He has fucked probably 90% of his female orbiters.

Dooby: You can usually tell who because they're always on his stream.

Yeah

Me: Lol yeah.

Dooby: Then there's some drama/fall out and they're flung out of orbit.

Me: But there is weirder shit than that, but I can't get specific yet.

Dooby: I helped a former friend of mine build a streaming platform a year or so ago and she had a similar experience.

Me: Would she be interested in talk to me off the record?

• talking

Dooby: Definitely not. She and I aren't friends anymore(unrelated) and she doesn't stream anymore either. You probably saw her around when she was streaming

She used to go by Eristocracy

Me: I didn't know she had that experience with him.

Dooby: But she's firmly in the Destiny camp just because she'd be more concerned about the clout involved.

It wasn't anything as intense as the what [sic] happened to Ana or Denims or Kira.

Me: But she went through the typical pattern of--he fucks you, shits on you, DGG dogpiles you, and then you leave?

Dooby: He tried to slide into her DMs, came into our friend group for a bit while attempting to hook up, then when she turned him down he fell out of the friend group and it was much harder for her to get on his stream going forward.

Me: Good for her.

Dooby: So she didn't get the harsher treatment, but he lived up to his reputation of going after new female streamers

Me: Yeah.

She didn't get tangled up in the psycho shit.

Dooby: Nope

But again, she and I don't talk anymore and she'd probably deny it if you brought it up with her.

So 🤷‍♂️

Me: Yeah I'm worried there's gonna be a lot of that.

Dooby: 100%

Me: He knows how to pick his victims.

Dooby: He's always had the reputation of being a bit of a Weinstein when it comes to the Twitch politics sphere. I've heard stories, seen the public breakdowns, but I sincerely doubt you're going to get anyone who isn't already openly at odds with him to speak out and present anything he hasn't already aired out on his stream with his narrative spin.

Me: Yeah. I've already seen things that he hasn't aired out but I don't have permission to share them.

This is the same way I felt when [redacted] showed me screenshots of Dr. K ignoring that Reckful was trying to kill himself but wouldn't let me use them.

It's infuriating.

Dooby: I know the feeling. It happens sometimes on my server. I get evidence someone is actively doing something awful to a user, but I can't do anything about it directly because it would put the victim at risk. So I end up needing to fabricate entirely new narratives, complete with staged interactions, to get to the end result where I get to permanently ban them.

Very weird and frustrating.

Me: Yes.

But like I said, I think he's good at sniffing out who he can control and who he can't.

Dooby: Yup. And there's no shortage of vulnerable young streamers on twitch willing to put up with him to advance their new career.

Me: Right. So I guess now I'm just stuck pathetically messaging them and asking if they want to actually do anything about this.

Dooby: I'll try reaching out to Denims and Kira and push them your way if I can.

Me: Thank you [Dooby].

Dooby: :YEsaluteF:

Hey you. Just giving you a quick update. A few of my mods are pretty well known in Kira's community and I've got another in Denim's community. Will let you know when they get back to me.

Did you reach out to any of the women he's publicly had issues with? I'm on good terms with most of them, I think.

Me: I'm trying to but none of them are getting back to me.

He is starting the anti-mrgirl hate train pretty hardcore now.

So I would love your help in talking to them before I look like a spiteful asshole.

I can't tell you who I've talked to already so just try to connect me to everyone you can think of.

Dooby: Will do. I'll give you an update as soon as I've got something

Me: Thank you.

Dooby: I've been super busy lately so I haven't kept up with most streams/videos. Aren't you and Destiny close friends? Or did that blow up recently?

Me: Well we're friends, but I stopped working with him because I think he's abusive to his orbiters, and then I found out he's been lying about and smearing the women he fucks.

And then someone told me he said he is aroused by psychologically tormenting women.

So I guess we're friends but he's also a sociopath and I'd like to figure out what's going on.

Dooby: :facepalm:

If it turns out Ana was telling the truth a lot of people are going to feel like assholes. That sounds really similar to what she was saying

NO WAY

YEPainWhyGod:

After all that drama

Jesus

Me: [He was sexting Ana] the entire time. [...]

Dooby: That's nuts. I can't imagine how that even works with all the public blowups. Unless she's got some sort of humiliation fetish

Me: No no... She just doesn't want him to stop talking to her.

Dooby: Oh don't worry about it. I get it. I've had to deal with sensitive stuff like this before

Delete whatever you gotta.

Me: Okay thank you.

She knows if she goes public he'll cut her off. In a weird way she's blackmailing him for more sex.

Dooby: That's fucked. I feel bad for her. Sounds like an EXTREMELY abusive dynamic

Me: Yes.

There is a general pattern of:

1. Bring on female orbiter.

2. Fuck her.

3. Trash her with community.

4. Discard her.

I would like to stop this from happening but I can't really if she doesn't want to come forward.

Dooby: Yeah idk. I feel like she's been so thoroughly put through the mud on multiple streams for the last year or more she's got like zero credibility.

So it's going to be very hard to get people to listen

Me: I know. That's why I would like to help her.

I still have a decent amount of credibility.

Steven will move to take it away though.

Dooby: I worry that bringing all that up again is going to lead to people attacking her again. When that situation went public a LOT of people pulled Ana on stream and used the story to pull views + clout for themselves as they made her cry and defended Steven.

I felt really bad for her.

Because she was clearly not doing well mentally.

It's gonna be rough. I'll do what I can to help but I don't have much influence outside of Discord.

Me: If she gives me permission, I can prove that almost everything he says about her is just a lie.

Maybe she'll get attacked but that's better than having zero credibility.

Dooby: True. I'll give you an update as soon as I've got one. It sounds like things have been pretty intense lately, so if you ever need someone to vent at I'm here for it.

YEsaluteF:

Me: Yeah it's been ugly and is going to get a lot worse, so thank you.

The next day, during the "I'm Nuclear" stream, Destiny leaked our DMs.

Me: You've leaked our conversation.

Dooby: Yes.

Me: Why?

Dooby: I messaged Steven immediately after you messaged me. I've had people try the 'malicious sexual predator' narrative with me before and I know how damaging it can be, so I couldn't let you do it to him. Not when you've pressured him to be emotionally open with you and promised not to betray him.

Given the clear mental health issues Ana has dealt with and your own experience dealing with the mentally vulnerable, I can't believe you didn't know how unreasonable it was to go in depth with her about it without Steven's involvement.

I was very disappointed in you and if you'd come to me first I would've tried to talk you out of it. You had already started the process, so it was too late to put it back in the bottle. Probing you for information and sharing it with Steven was the best I could do. You should've gone to him, your close friend, before messaging me or anyone else if you had these concerns.

I'm sorry things developed this way, sir.

Me: Do you mind if I share these DMs?

Dooby: Nope.

After Destiny ended his stream, he and Lav spoke in a private Discord call.

Lav tried to add me to the call so the three of us could talk. I told her I wasn't interested.

Destiny DMed me: SHE'S SELF HARMING RIGHT NOW. HURRY. HOLY SHIT.

Ever the white knight, I joined immediately. Of course he was lying.

(I'm writing this conversation from memory, as I did not record it or take notes.)

"You guys are trying to MeToo me," he said, all of the earlier vitriol gone from his voice.

Racked with guilt, I said, "I think you're sociopathic and you should get help."

"What happened?" Lav asked. "We used to be friends. Can't we just talk this out?"

I told Lav he had just smeared us, and recommended she not talk to him.

He said, "No, I smeared you."

I conceded the point, and appreciated his concession that he had indeed smeared me. It was just like old times, and, disturbed by the bubbling affection I felt for the man I had come to see as my abuser, I left the call.

The orbiter dogpile began immediately, with a stream that would be uploaded to ChudLogic's YouTube channel with the title "Lavlune CRIES, Complete MENTAL BREAKDOWN in Heated Execution over Destiny/MrGirl."

The panel began with ChudLogic's editor, DriftKingEdits, saying to Lav, "[Lav] has always been a lying bitch, never listen to anything that she says."

[...]

NotSoErudite: I think that the way that you got treated on the DGG Reddit was way beyond the pale, right? I think absolutely there's a problem with the way that women in this space get treated. I think the fact that these two people are sexting each other is a really stupid idea. I do think that there are boundaries and responsibilities. Those criticisms that you've worked yourself back to I think are completely fine.

(The Destiny-Ana narrative had quickly become that he was stupid or crazy for sexting Ana. Using this language, orbiters could criticize his actions without implying he had abused his power or mistreated Ana.)

Lav [crying]: I should not have made the Harvey Weinstein comparison, I shouldn't have. I will walk it back. I will walk it back completely. Every single time someone brings it up, I will walk it back, I shouldn't have said it. It doesn't matter if it was a joke, it doesn't matter if it wasn't a joke, I shouldn't have said it. [...] There's nothing I can do. I can not go back in time. I cannot fucking change it. I made it. I thought that, in the moment, it was a very apt criticism. And I even think that now it is comparable in the way that I see it. But you have to see it through my lens. And I'm trying to explain to you my lens. And you're saying that it's not real. It's not true. And it doesn't matter if it's not real or not true. What's at play is whether or not I really believed it when I said it. It's not whether or not it is 100%. True. I shouldn't have said it–

NotSoErudite: No. No.

Lav: Oh my god, stop.

NotSoErudite: Lav, you've been talking for a minute straight, the fuck? I'm gonna respond at some point.

Lav: Yeah, but I haven't finished!

NotSoErudite: Of course, I can understand from your point of view why you felt that way, why you came to the conclusions. I think that's all within the margin of error of being human. Absolutely. That's not the problem that I have. The issue is that public space isn't your space to have a diary and just express what you're thinking and feeling because there are ramifications for your public theorizing.

[...]

NotSoErudite: [...] You were talking about [the Weinstein comparison], and there's just only 80 people [watching the stream], and then you look back after playing a game and there was like 1,600 or something. And so basically, all you're saying is like, "Oh, well, if I had fewer eyes on me, then it would totally be okay that I was saying these ungracious crazy things about my friend. What the fuck?

[...]

Lav: [...] I've never felt uncomfortable with my sexual dynamic with Steven. However, [what] then becomes the criticism, which I think is extremely important to acknowledge, is what is ethical when it comes to the fact that you have this huge platform, and you're allowing all of these small creators or fans to come on, and you're also having sexual relationships with them? What is normal, what is okay, what do we evaluate? That is a very interesting and apt conversation to have. I don't know whether or not it is abusive. It feels abusive to me, it feels abusive to me. But I'm also not the moral police. So this is a conversation that everyone can have amongst each other to decide what is how much of responsibility Steven has to take for his platform. Max thinks–

[...]

NotSoErudite: I'm basically willing to just fully grant that that was your position. You just thought there was some interesting stuff. You wanted to ask some questions. Maybe I can fully grant you that–I'm dubious, I'm dubious, but I'll just grant it for the sake of this conversation. You cannot possibly convince me that Max was just going, "I think this is an interesting conversation. These are just some interesting questions that we need to pose because there is nothing in what he was doing behind the scenes [...] like there was no shot that he was just genuinely inquisitive and curious, and worried about his friend and doing the trust-but-verify thing. It was not that. [...] I know how he approached at least some of [the women] which is not at all just curious and soft and open and inquisitive. It was absolutely narrative painting. I mean, every single question he asked was begging the question and painting a narrative. [...] I actually think in all this probably you're getting a lot of shit because you're being so public about it, more than Max is at this point, which really sucks because the worst actor here is Max. Like everyone is like shitting on you. To be honest, Max has acted way more irresponsibly, [...] way more disrespectfully than you have.

[...]

Lav: How much responsibility does Steven take in the fact that, you know, did he really foster the sort of relationship with me [...] where I could give him feedback in confidence? And was it my fault for trying to act like I was stronger than I was when he when he checked in on me that one time and asked how I was doing with all of the DGG hate and I was like, "Water under the bridge!" Obviously I have to take responsibility for that too because I expected him to caretake me when I was acting like I was fine. All of us have done things that are fucked up, this is like navigating real life relationships and friendships that are already hard.

NotSoErudite: Everyone's been meanie meanie poo poo, it's just a bunch of bad people that are messy and broken having messy broken communications–like, it's not that simple. It's actually not. Maybe on your side, that's all that's going on. Possibly, right? But the reality is like that is not all that's going on here. Like the reality is the way that Max reacted to the situation isn't normal. It's not at all how you treat your friends, he's acted in horrific faith. [...] and he's doing what he always fucking does. He feels hurt, he feels upset, he creates a narrative post hoc, and then suddenly rationalizes his emotion into a malicious narrative about some other person. And that way he can't be feeling some sort of way and just have it be that, now the person's all these bad, malicious, nasty things. And he did it to Destiny. He's done it to multiple people in a row–

Lav: He did it to me–

NotSoErudite: I know. I know he did. And it's wrong. Just to be clear, even if it comes from a place of brokenness, [...] this is the thing you have to do with mental health–it is understandable how you could be doing these behaviors, expressing these things, but it is not excusable. And if you are doubling down on the garbage bullshit behavior you've been doing, you are fully responsible. And until then, all we can do is hold [Max's feet to the] fire unless he basically backs off or changes his position or apologizes. I don't know what else to do.

[...]

NotSoErudite: Do you think that he approached any woman who, for example, Steven is platonic with or Steven has had past sexual relationships, but now engages with them completely normally? Has he approached any women that are friends with Steven?

Kelly Jean: He's not approached me, and he follows me on Twitter. He's never spoke to me.

NotSoErudite: I feel like if you want to be responsible in construing about whether or not your friend is a fucking abuser, it's probably worth making sure you dot your i's and cross your t's.

Lav: I think I agree with you. I think I agree with you, but also like you've got to understand that Steven went on stream and called him a rapist and said he was blackballing him and said he was going to delete his website–

NotSoErudite: That was after. That was after. None of that matters.

(NotSoErudite would later tell me that she thought it was wrong for Destiny to call me a rapist. His accusation, coming the same day he learned I was planning to speak out against him, was based on a story I'd publicly told about a sexual encounter where I'd received mixed signals from a woman and taken it to mean she consented. I used the story as an example of how idealized and explicit consent is often not present in real sex, but neither I nor the woman ever thought that I'd raped her. Destiny had known the story for 11 months before calling it rape. His fans immediately took to calling me "mrrape.")

NotSoErudite: Steven, according to at least probably me, you and Max's view, is somebody who has [...] trust issues, definitely has problems with vulnerability, opening up to people, and he went on this deep explorative journey of being like, "You know what, I should have friends. I'm going to open myself up to people and be vulnerable." And he did that with Max, which is super based–that shows something about Max's character that Steven was willing to trust him with this stuff. And the problem is that he has been so royally backstabbed. There has been information that Steven told Max, that was only between him and Max, that Max weaponized to try to get more information on Steven that has absolutely been devastating for this. Like, how do we not have empathy for fucking Steven?

She was referring to the woman with whom Destiny had an affair. I'd reached out to her to offer to write her story if she wanted me to, to tell her that both Destiny and Melina seemed to have spilled about the affair to a large number of streamers, and to warn her that I'd come to see Destiny as a sociopath. She told Destiny about our conversation, who then repeatedly mentioned it on stream as an example of me behaving unethically.

ChudLogic: Lav, [...] I just want to propose to you because, you know, I'm trying to be the neutral party and all this, obviously I'm split in many of these ways, is it not a possibility that Max is inviting you in closer because he's trying to control you further?

Lav: [...] He has not manipulated me at all. What I think is going on is that I'm the stupidest person alive. I'm just extremely dumb. I'm just extremely dumb.

NotSoErudite: If you're dumb, you're so easily manipulable.

Kelly Jean: Suggestible, yes.

NotSoErudite: I don't necessarily want to paint this narrative that they're trying to control you and manipulate you. I have no fucking idea.

Lav: I think my brain is fine. I think well, I just don't think before I speak. I just need to be more patient. I'm just impulsive. I'm just impulsive and retarded. I'm like, I'm whatever. I'm a bad person. Don't don't take me seriously, I guess. I don't know. Clearly. Clearly I'm not okay. Clearly, I'm not okay. I'm very mentally ill. I don't know if I should be in this space. But now, I don't know. All of this is fucking crazy.

[...]

NotSoErudite: [...] The reason why when Steven levies a criticism it packs such a punch, it's not because he has these hordes of DGG dopilers that he sics on people. It's because people know that when Steven levies a criticism, he's got fucking receipts, that he's thought about it, that he's intentional about it. He doesn't just fucking riff off. He doesn't just say dumb shit about people.

Lav: This is so biased. So anecdotally biased.

NotSoErudite: No, this is not biased. Not at all. Are you fucking kidding me? He is absolutely researched. This is why people respect his opinion on things. This is why when Steven comes out against or for somebody it changes the structure of the narrative, because people respect his opinion. And yes, there is major responsibility for him in that. He fucked up with the comment about the phone with Max and his girlfriend. That was not wise, when [...] comments about his friends have that much power, that was not a good thing to say. I understand why Max was upset. But if he levies legitimate criticisms at his friend, you don't get to be mad as Max, because guess what some of these criticisms are valuable, and true.

When she says "the comment about the phone with Max and his girlfriend," she is referring back to a stream where Destiny asked me if it is true that I don't allow my girlfriend to have a phone. I was utterly shocked, and asked him if this was a genuine question. He said he thought it wasn't likely but that he could imagine me not allowing her to own a phone. This conversation triggered several days of jokes, memes, and genuine speculation about whether I let my girlfriend have a phone. To this day people still bring it up

I confronted Destiny about it on stream, telling him that he'd fucked me over. This was the first domino to fall in my painfully slow realization that Destiny is not merely irresponsible and insensitive, but calculating and malicious.

Lycan: And the big thing here is, Lav, a lot of the issues that you're having with these criticisms, and getting this flak is because–[...] we don't even have to talk about interpersonal things, we can go back to your political takes and your evolution there. You, last night, got on a stream, and as I was pushing back on you, you started to backpedal on a lot of the reasons why you were there. [...] you're not really thinking about these things before you engage, before you act. And if you do that, you probably wouldn't have a lot of these issues. But you're so easily influenced in all these situations, and you know, but yet you keep getting on streams, and you keep saying these things. And now you're getting into serious territory. It's one thing when your views on sex work and trans people and all these other issues are going through an evolution in public. It is an entirely different one when you start engaging with serious things like sexual accusations and abuse and misbehavior. And lastly, to put a capstone on this, being a streamer is an incredibly difficult dynamic to navigate. Being friends with streamers is an even more so one. But you have projected a lot of onus onto Steven that no one else in the real world believes is there. There are power dynamics at play, there are power dynamics to consider. But the superior-subordinate one that you keep leaning back on is not really there. You are putting it there. You have a choice to be his friend, you have a choice to go on his stream, you benefit from it–

Lav: Steven has to be aware–

Lycan: Steven is aware, and he isn't abusive with that power. He doesn't sic his audience on you. Just because he gives his belief or his view on a situation that, in many cases, other people tend to be the first ones to come public with, [like] last night–he is going to give his opinion and feedback and there's going to be repercussions. You're on the internet, that's going to happen. People are gonna talk about you, people are gonna go on the subreddit and make posts about you. That is the nature of the internet. Free speech, baby, all the way. You have to decide whether or not you can deal with it, but you can't keep internalizing it and then coming out with these crazy public statements, and not having something well thought out that you can substantiate.

Lav: Okay, great. I think that this is again–I really struggle.

Lycan: Yes.

Lav: Okay, now I know that everyone wants to make this feedback about me. I get it. I have already said that I shouldn't have said anything. I'm very impulsive, maybe I don't interact with–

Lycan: How many times are you going to say that before you do something about it?

Lav: I will never fucking do anything about it. I won't. This is just who I am.

NotSoErudite: Wait, what? No, Lav, come on, Lav.

Lycan: No, no, no, you can't be on this personal growth journey and then throw that shit out.

Kelly Jean: Maybe write yourself a little post it note and stick it on your laptop or something, so you can remember not to be a fucking [inaudible] every day.

NotSoErudite: There are empirical things you can do to improve your impulse control. Are you kidding me?

Kelly Jean: She just doesn't want to, I guess.

Lav: You're saying that I'm on this personal journey arc. I've been a streamer for three months. Give me a–

Lycan: How many times do you have to get into these situations before you realize, "Fuck, maybe I need to step back and consider how I behave on stream and what I say publicly."

Lav: Do you think I'm not doing that?

Lycan: No!

Lav: This is not me literally doing that?

Lycan: No, if you were doing that you wouldn't be having the continual repetitive–it's every three days, Lav. It's every three days. You get on Destiny's stream, you make comments, you get your ass pushed in and then you come back three more days to do it again.

Lav: Am I just not doing it fast enough? Am I not doing it fast enough for you? I'm fucking sorry.

Lycan: No, you're not making any corrections. You're not making any corrections to the behavior.

Lav: Why are you holding me to these fucking corrections? You're a stranger! You're a fucking stranger!

Lycan: Because you're a public figure and I'm levying criticism at you.

NotSoErudite: [...] You're not some baby tiny streamer. Don't you have a 700K TikTok and you're decently successful with music? This has been a big thing that I've actually had to like tell other people to fuck off about, is they've tried to be like, "Look there is this massive discrepancy of size and clout and capacity between Lav and Destiny," but that's not true. You're very successful in multiple areas.

Lav: This is the last thing I will say about my involvement. I'm obviously severely mentally ill. I'm like, I don't exist, I don't even–none of this internet fame has ever felt fucking real to me. I was in a cult for five years with no access to the fucking internet, and then all of a sudden I get on the internet, I become fucking famous out of nowhere? I only exist on the internet, everyone feels like my friend. [...] I go online, I say my little silly things on live without consequence because it's the fucking online world, nothing feels fucking real. You have to put into perspective, like, I do not live–I dissociate constantly. Like I don't know what is real and what is not real.

Lycan: Here's a piece of genuine, non-harsh critical advice.

Lav: No, I don't want to hear it! I don't want to hear it! I don't want to–

Lycan: You have a friend. You had a friend, I don't know where that stands right now. You had a friend named Steven that you could have gone to–

Lav: We are friends! We are friends and he gets it, he understands.

Lycan: He gets it–that's not what I'm saying. It's fine that he gets it. The fact that he gets it, and he likes you and he's willing to engage with you–something you could do is process things with him offline. Talk to him in chat, talk to him on the phone. And before you go public with these things–

Lav: I know.

Lycan: You could do that. Well you say you know, but I'm telling you that is one of the key pieces to the puzzle when it comes to these issues you have.

Lav: Again, you're acting like this is extremely easy to navigate.

Lycan: No, that's easy. That is easy.

Lav [beginning to cry] Take how hard it is to navigate–genuinely, take how hard it is to navigate this as a–

Lycan: I've been in this space for a long time. It's very difficult to navigate. It's–

Lav: Okay now add that on to that, I'm just, I'm extremely underdeveloped socially, like extremely underdeveloped socially. Now take all of that and [...] I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. I know that I made a mistake, I feel fucking bad.

Lycan: Lav, I'm telling you easily, very easily what to do. I'm telling you–it's fine, let's erase everything that's happened up to this point. You're gonna go forward from this stream trying to make a change. That is the key. And I'm sure–

Lav: I don't know if I am and you can't hold me to that, I don't know.

Kelly: She doesn't want to.

ChudLogic: This is pointless. I've created a dogpile by mistake, I'm sorry.

Lav: It's not that I don't want to, it's that I can't!

ChudLogic: Lycan, I think you should leave, okay?

Pxie: Lav, wait, Lav. I believe you are capable of change. I honestly–

Lav: Why is this–oh my god, this is so annoying, everything becomes about me! Everything becomes about me! [...] Why can't we talk about the very apt criticism that is Steven sleeping with everyone that he interacts with? I think that that is an interesting conversation to have. It always comes back to me. Why? Why? I fucked up, I already said I fucked up!

NotSoErudite: For a couple of reasons, right? I get this. I get this.

Lav: What else can I do?

NotSoErudite: Okay, so here [is] genuinely how I think–the best way for us all to move forward. [...] I can tell that you're super distressed, Lav. I think it's probably better for the conversation to end sooner than later because I hear the distress that's going on for you, and I don't think that anything good is going to come out of pushing this even more. I really think that you should just slow down a little bit.

Smeth: I think you guys are gaslighting Lav.

Smeth isn't one of Destiny's orbiters. He's one of mine.

NotSoErudite: Cool, Smeth. Thanks for the fucking psych terms. Good job. I think when you talk about leaving Twitter for three days, I think that's a really really good idea. I think a lot of this will just like blow over if you just–

Smeth: You're just insulting her. You're just insulting her over and over and then letting her melt down, and then every time she melts down [...] then she scrambles for anything just just to get a breath of air, and she's desperate and emotional so she reaches and says anything, and then anything that helps your narrative you grasp onto and then keep going forward with that. What the fuck is going on here? What are we talking about? Can we stop fucking dogpiling Lav and talk about the actual accusations and actual meat of the matter?

NotSoErudite: Nobody is that interested. I'm unironically trying to be kind right now, because I don't hate Lav. I've already extended multiple amounts of grace. There are certain things that she'll then say, to try to weasel out, so then we'll hold her on that–

Lav: Because you keep fucking quote tweeting me, you keep trying to virtue signal using me constantly, I already know that I fucked up–

NotSoErudite: Hold on. I only tweeted your misandry stuff–no, Lav–

Lav: You will do anything but talk about what's been levied at Steven.

NotSoErudite: I have talked about what is levied at Steven.

Kelly Jean: What do people feel like we haven't spoken about, exactly?

Smeth: Okay, so the thing being investigated, that there's no evidence for right now–there's no evidence–the thing that's being investigated is that Steven has sex with women that then go on his stream afterwards, or during, any time he's–

NotSoErudite: I'm gonna, sorry, my mic got super cut out. I just wanted to finish addressing my conversation with Lav. Just to be clear, I've never quoted you on anything about the Steven stuff. The last thing I quoted you was on the misandry stuff, right? Which to some extent makes sense, that's kind of the thing I talk about. I genuinely think the idea of you stepping back from Twitter for a couple days is really smart. I think that's a really, really good idea, though. I don't think you're wholly malicious. I think like when you get your toes held to the fire for inconsistencies, I think that really sucks. And I think the internet is particularly harsh and cruel to women. So I think you're getting an extra dose of it, and that sucks way, way more. [...] Part of this problem is that the way that you respond to it often throws fuel to the fire, if that makes sense. And then it's–

Smeth: Very, very kind of you to give her an out where she can agree with you and then get off Twitter for a while, very kind of you.

NotSoErudite: Smeth, literally, first of all, who the fuck are you? Second of all, why are you coming in here and trying to now just do the opposite thing and like wipe my ass.

Smeth: Because it's a dogpile.

Kelly Jean: Yeah, Chud wanted someone that was more on Lav's side, probably.

NotSoErudite: Okay, here's the thing. You're basically now just creating some–I don't know who the fuck you are. And you're basically saying that me genuinely trying to extend some element of human grace to Lav is being gaslighting and manipulative?

Smeth: In order for her to acknowledge that grace–

NotSoErudite: She doesn't have to agree [with] me to get off of Twitter, she can have the same fucking opinion and just get off Twitter. I'm recommending she get off Twitter the same way, for example, when Ana loops I highly encourage her to take a break off the internet. For example, when I start getting distressed and overwhelmed with the internet, I also take a break. Having

Smeth: You sound distressed right now, so maybe you should get off the internet. It would really be great for me if you got off the internet right now.

NotSoErudite: Good job, good job, you're gonna mock a woman having some emotions. Good job, Smeth, very good virtuous white knight, well done.

Smeth: I'm showing you by doing exactly what you're doing. You're emotional now, so I'm telling you exactly what you just told Lav. If you'd log off the internet it would be great, and that really works for me, too, because it would mean that you'd shut the fuck up.

NotSoErudite: No, no, no, there's a very big difference between me being mad at some fucking loser fuck name Smeth and a girl crying and begging people to stop attacking her.

Lav: Why are you calling him a loser fuck?

NotSoErudite [laughing]: For so many obvious reasons. You need to take a break. You don't have to. Here's one that makes you a fucking weirdo, Smeth, remember when Shaelin made the picture of Lav being a child of fucking Max and whatnot, and you fucking superimposed your face on the picture, and then you told Max that you were mad that he took Lav on as a child.

Lav: Are you laughing? You're trying to publicly humiliate him.

NotSoErudite: This is public. This is on Reddit.

Lav: Why are you bringing this up? You're trying to publicly humiliate him, for what? Isn't this what your platform is against?

NotSoErudite: Because he just asked me why am I calling him a weird fuck.

[...]

Lav: You are engaging in abhorrent behavior. Stop. You're only empathetic to people who are in your fucking court, Kyla? Get a fucking grip. Do not treat people like that. You're calling him a loser and you're publicly embarrassing him. This is the fucking problem with being a fucking online streamer. You're looking for your fucking stocks to go up. You're looking for public favor. You're trying to see what you can do to make your fucking stocks go up to make you look good to make you feel like–

NotSoErudite: How does attacking a random person make my stocks go up?

They are referring to the Destiny orbiter stock market. Usually when one orbiter gets dogpiled it's the result of losing a fight with another orbiter, who then gets love bombed. Orbiter stocks were a joking way for Destiny's community to talk about our social standings–another example of humor providing cover for Destiny, in this case obfuscating the abusiveness of a system that relies on people desperately humiliating one another in vicious fights monetized by Destiny.

People also make bets about Destiny's sphere with play money on a site called Manifold Markets. For example, the market currently predicts there's a 56% chance that, somewhere in this report, I'll claim that Destiny made me suicidal.

Lav: Shut the fuck up! You've done it to me, you've done it to Smeth, you've done it to everyone you fucking can to make yourself look fucking higher than them. That's the problem. That's the design of this fucking internet, and that's why it's fucking abusive. That's why mrgirl is talking about it. This is a problem. [...] You're talking to a small creator like fucking Smith and you're publicly embarrassing him because it looks good for you–

NotSoErudite: Is he a creator? I don't know if he's a creator, first of all, he came in–

Smeth: I don't want to make this about me.

NotSoErudite [cackling]: He came in hot. Okay, he came in hot and already being condescending as fuck towards me, so let's not act like I just suddenly was like, "Oh, who's this new face? Ah, gotta get him!" There's no fucking way. Yes I went and attacked him, yes I think he's kind of a weird fuck, but I actually don't know if he's a content creator, and the reason why I outlined the Reddit post is because–

Lav: Publicly embarrass him, that's good.

NotSoErudite: Yeah, that's a really nice narrative for you, Lav.

[...]

Kelly Jean: This is really cringe, come on. We're talking about a Reddit post of a superimposed picture. Come on, less cringe.

Smeth: If you convince me to start crying and then and then start scrambling for something, you'll give me your hand to reach out to and I'll grab it, and you'll be like, "See? See, look you should just get off of Twitter." What the fuck?

NotSoErudite: I didn't convince Lav to cry, it was after she talked with Lycan, and Lycan was holding her feet to the fire that she started crying first of all, so rewrite that one.

Smeth: All of the aggression came from you.

NotSoErudite: No, it didn't. Absolutely Lycan was holding her feet to the fire way harder than I was, he was not letting her rebuild, he was being super harsh, and then she started crying.

Smeth: All the passive aggression came from you. The hidden aggression, the stuff you can't actually fight back against, came from you.

NotSoErudite: Like what, precisely?

Smeth: The whole time.

Kelly Jean: Give an example.

NotSoErudite: Yeah. What do you mean?

Smeth: If I wanted to, I could take this stream and write a giant essay about it. [...] I just stepped in to make sure it stopped.

[...]

Smeth: I don't know if Destiny would do this, but my idea that I came up with earlier was if Destiny could just say, "I'm going to fuck whoever the fuck I want, leave me the fuck alone, but if I fuck you, you're not coming on my stream again."

NotSoErudite: What? Why?

Kelly Jean: But that's weird as well.

NotSoErudite: That is so weird.

Smeth: So because of the power dynamic–

NotSoErudite: Shut up, just because something has power dynamics, or is weird, it's not inherently malicious, unless he's actively taking advantage of the power disparity to basically pump and fucking dump. That's the problem. But the rule shouldn't be that if he fucks you he could just never have you on stream, because then he's gonna have me, Britney Simon, and I guess like maybe Kelly. He'll have like three women on stream, necessarily, right?

NotSoErudite: So that's not the rule you need to take, the rule you need to take is–

Lav: And that's okay? That's normal?

NotSoErudite: When Steven engages sexually with women, he needs to make sure that there's no power dynamic, that he's being extra careful and making sure that you're not feeling pressure to come on or to not be on stream, and he needs to make sure that he's explicit with his sexual boundaries with them. If he's doing all of these things, for the most part, he's good. And I would basically argue probably you should try pursuing women and not just sleeping with women who pursue you first. That would probably be my other recommendation I would make to him.

Smeth: Well, I don't disagree that it can be navigated in a way that doesn't hurt people. I'm just saying that there is a power dynamic where he's very powerful and going on his stream will help you a lot, so if you've had sex with him and then you engage in that power dynamic, depending on who you are, maybe you can't handle that. [...] Is it Destiny's job to be able to know who can handle that or not? Because eventually he's gonna fuck up and someone's gonna get hurt.

Kelly Jean: People do get hurt in life, that does happen, yes. People's fee-fees get hurt occasionally.

[...]

Before she left the stream, Lav confronted Chud about setting her up to be dogpiled.

Lav: You got Kuihman to come on here and say that I'm lying about my other sexual assault allegation, to say all of this crazy fucking shit. It is insane to say I was lying about my heart attack, come on.

ChudLogic: Kuihman is evil Dan, he's evil Dan, I agree with you.

Lav: To talk about my husband's job? Come on, use your platform a little more responsibly. Please, if you're telling me to use mine responsibly, you have to be doing it also.

ChudLogic: Okay, I would bring on the second coming of Hitler if it resulted in more views.

Lav: Okay, well, at least from this point, please don't anymore. Don't do this to me anymore. Please. Thank you. Goodbye.

ChudLogic: Okay, all the best, byebye.

November 12, 2022: Destiny blacklisted Lav and I, announcing on stream:

"This is the actual last day because starting tomorrow they are not only never getting mentioned in my shit again, I'm going to be removing every fucking thread. I'm also blacklisting the fuck out of them. Anybody that has them on their shows I'm probably not going to interact with for a minimum of two weeks."

He did not follow through with any of this, but I think it served as an effective warning to orbiters who might have otherwise taken a more neutral stance toward this project.

Despite Lav's request that ChudLogic leave her alone, he would publish the following videos to his YouTube channel over the next two months:

"Exposing INSANE LIES & Gaslighting From Lavlune (Lav Dies)"

"Lav EXPOSES EVERYTHING in CAREER ENDING Manifesto, Destiny Weighs In Live"

"LEAKED LOGS! - Hasan DESTROYS Lav in HEATED Response to Her Allegations"

"MENTALLY ILL OnlyFans ***** Wants Me to DELETE This Video, I Leak DMs Instead"

"OF ***** ATTACKS Chud AGAIN w_ Help from Shaelin!"

The thumbnails frequently featured sexual photos of Lav grabbed from her Twitter.

November 14, 2022:

Lav posted the following essay to her Patreon, titled "This is it."

I’ve taken days to think, away from the internet, away from my home and computer, spoken to multiple professionals and have decided to close this casket publically. Before I do, I want to be clear and concise in what I’ve learned and felt over the past week. An announcement:

I will not be streaming anymore. Effective immediately and possible [sic] indefinetly [sic]. I will perhaps participate in some debates, sparingly andas [sic] a guest appearance, but my focus will be on my YouTube channel, developing my own body of content. Im not built for this panel world. I am too aggressive to be as sensitive as I am. I make a fool of myself, I lose my message. I don't navigate social situations well as an autistic person, and I don't have enough practice under my belt to be able to responsibly put myself in tricky social situations in stream. Maybe some day. Probably not, though.

ILL BE ON THIS PATREON THOUGH. . (Twitter probably needs to go, but I can not part with it

This world has taken up my life. To my detriment, I have worked hard.

I'm addicted to approval. I'm addicted to proving myself. All of this hurts me. I couldn't stop. I have to stop.

I have dreams outside of the online that I need to pursue.

Overall, the narcissistic world of entertainment, has not bode me well. I left the music industry for the same reason. Something I thought was fun, turned into an ego feed, turned in to self harm, turned in to me spiraling. I don't want to be famous. I don't want these many eyes on me. It hurts. But it's addicting. To someone like me, who grew up without parents, to have eyes on me, the potential for love, the potential to prove im worthy of attention and adoration and love…..it's heroin. But I can't get that from you guys, ultimately. It's fickle. I can only get that from me.

But without further ado, what you all came for.

I don't care about the safety of keeping this inside my mouth and chest. Do your worst. I have nothing left to lose.

It sucks to come out. It does. It sucks to be a woman who comes out about someone bigger than you. This is my second time. Unfortunately men in power or with big platforms seem to have a propensity to abuse it.

This time is different. This time for a week straight, day and night I had hundreds of thousand [sic] of people trying to gaslight me or just downright hurling abuse at me.

Going public with sexual instances is embarrassing, and even more embarrassing when someone tries to come forward with that information for you.

People have decided to relay my personal story with Steven, that I told privately.

I should not trust friends online.

And I’m going to lay it out for you consisley [sic] and I’m never going to speak of it again. Steven and I did not have sex. We hooked up. I was nervous because I'd not been with many uncircumcised men. He was fine with that.

I went home after, I felt good about what had happened.

I did not open my relationship for Steven, I did not close it because of Steven.

What I didn’t anticipate was becoming part of stevens orbit in the way I had. I did not knowingly consent to a scenario Of being evaluated for my performance, being told I brought views and clicks and content, and existing in the social contract I did, after having a sexual dynamic with him, and I didn’t realize how many of the women in the orbit had the same social contract I did.

This was enough to just make me feel, strange.

Another thing that made me feel strange was when I begged Steven to do as little as tell him [sic] community to go easier on me on the platforms he could control. He deletes some of his fans critism [sic] of him on the Reddit, I thought it would be easy. Apparently, it wasn’t. And I was publically [sic] embarrassed for weeks, being gaslit that I couldn’t take accountability for how dumb and irritating and annoying I was, and I just had to admit all of those things and then we’d reevaluate. Steven even said I was using DARVO abuse tactics when I was expressing my feelings.

The thing that made me feel the weirdest was finding out Steven was sexting and still seeking sex from Ana, who for years he publically [sic] embarrassed and acknowledged was not only “crazy” but also completely obsessed with him and the consensus in the community has been she’s a psycho stalker and stevens done little to nothing to quell that idea and exploit Ana’s sobs and mental breakdown for views.

This, is abusive. It was the cherry on top that nobody knew about it, and the nuts sprinkled over everything was that Ana told me she felt like she had to do it in order to feel safe from Steven.

this resonated.

The first time Steven and I spoke off stream, he decided to tell me this huge “career ending” secret, and I bartered with my own secret. He’d alluded to it in messages, baiting me. And I had to know. We were strangers, and he told me.

I'm not keeping an abusers secrets. I'm done.

It was about sexual indiscretions about someone other than his wife. An affair, his wife didn’t know the extent of. And he said he was never going to tell her. He didn’t want to ruin anything because he had jumped the gun and broken up with Melina before he knew this other woman had wanted him. I thought, okay this is not really my business and I don’t know Melina.

Steven says he doesn’t care if this gets out because it only hurts the other woman. He's said this on stream multiple times. So, alas. I’m not going to mention the other woman because this has nothing to do with her.

And here I am, a stranger, holding this secret. Me, a stranger, pleading with him to tell his wife about his misconduct. I say secrets hurt people, resentment builds. he assures he's fine and will probably never tell her. I ask if this is going to affect him. he repeats for the 70th time to me, he is a sociopath and he doesn't and won't care.

Make no mistake, he wants people to know this secret. He wants to embarrass Melina and the other woman involved. It's why he teases it on stream. It's why he tells every orbiter , it why he told me. A stranger he wanted to have sex with. People with secrets they don't want people to know do not tease it on a stream with 15k people.

A day or two before Meeting in person we spoke on the phone again, and I had asked him about his relationship history because it seemed very toxic to me, being that he was cheating on his wife and the only other public relationships I knew of online were toxic. And he told me this really fun story of this time he and his ex worked together and he was sleeping with a co-worker. His ex went to the boss to tell him Steven was sleeping with a coworker and he lied to his boss about the coworker, saying she was a psycho and psychotic and she sobbed and freaked out in the office, and got fired. And he liked it. And they continued to have sex, and brought up the situation during sex. Because he literally, got off on it.

I thought he told me this to be edgy, the way men often do. But it made me uncomfortable and I didn’t know how to respond. We hung up moments later and I felt confused but we’d already made the plans to hang out.

When we hung out I asked him about Ana and chaeiry, He’d repeated the usual, “she’s psycho, I love toxic women. It’s exciting, it’s good content” I think I scoffed. He tells me Ana was a stalker but he's over it, again because he's a sociopath and he doesn't care much.

That’s the thing, Steven is so charming he could be saying literally anything and you feel like you’re in on it. I thought, yea. She is psycho. I’m different.

He frequently repeated “we’ll see how you’ll turn out” like he either expected me to be psychotic, he was hoping I’d be, or I’d have to prove myself that I wasn’t. I chose the last one.

Didn’t pan out, I guess. Not the way he sees it.

I didn’t know they’d been sexting. If I’d have known, I wouldnt have continued to hang out with him. Because that’s abusive. And I don’t have sexual relationships with abusive men.

Fast forward. I reach out to Ana almost a week ago. I'm feeling low because dgg hates me, and they're following me across platforms to leave nasty comments. And I'm starting to feel weird that Steven gaslit me and uploaded the video of me crying on his YouTube.

And she very willingly tells me, they still have a sexual relationship.

That's when I decided I'd never stream with him again.

Ana tells me he told her he likes to watch me embarrass myself on stream. I remember the ex wife story, the big secret. I remember the way I found out who he was, through the Ana streams being recommended to me on YouTube, He does , he likes this.

And it’s when I went on stream to say he was borderline abusive (I didn’t have the balls or the words to say it with my full chest) and I thought the power dynamic and lack of care he had for my well-being was uncomfortable enough to not stream with him anymore. (Something I thought would be a relief to his community and neutral to Steven) I immediately, was met with disdain. People jumping down my throat telling me I was horrible for coming out about it, very few people questioning why I’d said it. Or thinking critically about the power structure I felt I’d been in, where he used his orbiters as content, teeing us up for vitriol and not controlling the narrative he could’ve easily controlled, or at the very least told his community to stop mass linking pictures of me without makeup.

I’d gone from 80 views to 1600 on my stream. But I’d stopped talking about it at 400. I didn’t know the can of worms i was opening. I didn’t understand the culture of dgg, I thought I’d had an idea, but this was….big.

Then Steven went on stream and called max a rapist. And hurled that he was the most manipulative person he’d ever met, and I was just his next victim.

Max comes on to assert he wasn't going being stevens back as a backstab, but because Ana had told him they were still sexting, it was abusive, and he wanted to know what else Steven has been doing. Because max also knows about stevens "secret", because max has heard what everyone has heard about Steven being notorious, he's experienced his own emotional detachment and abuse from Steven, and he wants to make sure a man he called his friend is not serially abusing women. He uses the public information, that Ana came forward about a week earlier on her stream (that they are still sexting and sexual) and reminds Steven why he's questioning women.

Ana, who had spent days detailing carefully stevens abuse of her, too scared to leave his side. She does a 180, and lies about max manipulating her into giving her story to absolve her of any wrongdoing. She gets to be a victim. I was on that call. She never said no. She had spent hours prior giving her consent, readings [sic] out text messages. She was excited to come forward with this information because she finally thought she had a team assembled who cared about her. But the reception was bad. And she froze, and she went back to what she knew. Steven.

So she gets to be a victim. She says max manipulated her and Steven welcomes her with open arms because now,

Max is the enemy. Max is the evil.

I’ll be honest. I wanted that out.

I wanted it so bad. Id already spent hours getting harassed by dgg, seeing what the subreddit was saying. I was useless, evil, disgusting. This hit my mom-wound. I am so scared of being these things. I wanted to take solace in the out Steven gave me. I wanted to be a victim of max so bad. I wanted to avoid the dogpile and go back to my epic highs and lows of debating on stevens channel. The attention, the lights, the in-group. I wanted it.

I wanted to curl up next to Steven and repeat how bad max was. I wanted safety from the avalanche that would inevitably come.

But I knew I couldn’t.

Because I knew he abused Ana, I knew he lied to his wife. And I’m a feminist. It’s what I built my platform on. I don’t associate with abusive men. I won't keep their secrets.

At this point I didn’t think Steven was REALLY a sociopath, I didn’t think he was doing it on purpose, how could I? Steven HAD been kind to me. He’s a charming, likable guy. I messaged him saying I thought he needed to get help. See a therapist, maybe it was sex addiction, maybe he was stuck in his relationship, maybe it was intrapersonal.

I called him after his “I’m nuclear” stream.

And he gaslit me for 2 hours straight.

Assured he checked on me, did everything he could to be a good friend. Assured me he was the best friend, he'd checked on me once. I said I was okay…so really it was actually my fault . I'd been manipulating him….because I told him I was okay to get back on stream. Of course I did. Who wouldn't? I'd sobbed on that stream, made a diary entry. He'd acknowledged that I wasn't fit for stream. Yet, he'd say a day later my spiral was good content. Everyone has a piece of the responsibility pie.

he repeated I didn’t deserve his charitably [sic], he was just so charitable and such a good friend, I was crazy. But I didn’t have to be. And I still had a chance to be in his good graces if I denounced max. He said I needed help. That if I just woke up I’d see everything max was saying was a lie. And I nodded and stopped at the thought. The golden out. My solace.

And lastly he’d brought up the secret I’d told him.

Out of nowhere. So out of place in the conversation.

The secret I’d told him when he told me his secret. Told me it would ruin me, how bad I’d look. He’d worked it in. I’m not going to be blackmailed.

Hasan piker slept with my very young friend when he was not so young. It was legal. But he’s denounced men publically for doing much less. I don’t care about it. And she’s never going to come forward, but the fact exists nonetheless. An example of hipocrisy [sic]. Another persons Hipocrisy [sic] is gold to a streamer. A shiny weapon. I was armed. Nothing will come of it. Ethically it is a small infranction [sic]. And it won’t be held over my head.

I’d tried to get max and Steven to talk. Steven refused to say anything. Called him a rapist again, and max left with his integrity, having done me the favor of joining the call because he could see I was desperately trying to fix the mess. And Steven had typed "she's self harming, help come quick" and so max has come, quickly to see if it were true. Steven just laughed at how stupid it was for max to care if I was cutting myself on this VC call.

Unbeknownst to me while on the call he'd been writing to dgg "I'm saving the lav bridge"

he tells me out loud "I can't believe I'm having a 40k viewer conversation offline". I try to chuckle at the comment. Then I redirect-

and then [he] assures dgg, again, unbeknownst to me "maybe I can get her on tomorrow". I'd just told him the chances of me coming on in the next few months were zero, but maybe after, one on one. I'd just said this. He knew I wasn't coming on, and he hadn't discussed with me that he was relaying this information to dgg.

But he only exists on these streams. His community is him. He doesn't want to have the go bnb station anymore, he's checked out. He's tried to convince me max is manipulating me and he thinks it's worked. We hang up.

I woke up the next morning to see Ana had taken that out. It was the safer option. But it had made me so angry. I’d started to believe Steven was the good guy, because how couldn’t he have been? He’d platformed me, so new to the game, he’d met up with me, and was…sweet albeit a bit detached…

but max was a good guy. And I could swear he wasn’t manipulating me. And Ana had spun this web out of control.

I was so, so, so angry at Ana. I thought she’d sold me something. Steven re-assured me she was crazy and looping the night before. And he forgave her, and he could forgive me too if I just….denounced max.

Max assures me this is exactly how an abused woman acts. I google it because I don't trust him. (4000 people are telling me I'm a pawn in max's game. I am skeptical of max)

I should not have publically trashed her, and I should not have gone in that panel in the emotional state I was in.

I went on chuds panel after being gaslit by Steven.

Again, I shouldn’t have. Because I did not have it correct. I hadn’t spoken to my therapist in a week, I’m getting mounds and mounds of shit and hate pummeled at me. I just wanted to make it better. I just wanted everyone to be better. I couldn’t believe Ana had lied. After all the ways she called Steven evil I couldn’t believe she’d re-pledge allegiance. I wanted to make everything better.

I got off chuds stream after a desperate plea to leave my loved ones alone. (It only emboldened them) and watch stevens stream to self harm.

I’m watching Kyla literally do whatever she can to gain favor in the same way I was incentivized to, on stream.

I’ve known the feeling of in group signaling. I’ve known my place in this machine. I’ve been Kyla.

There is a weak orbiter, you need to solidify your place.

I did this with max.

Remind the audience you’re there. And you’re good. And you’re here to stay.

Steven is still, blazeé.

Steven sits there watching me on chud logics panel and calmly chuckles at my tears and sobs. He chuckles. He laughs. Despite the conversation we’d had the night before. He enjoys the content I create. He enjoys my implosion. Womens ults, make for great media.

["Ults" is a reference to "ulting," gaming slang for using a character's ultimate ability. Destiny uses the term to refer to women crying in order to win an argument or escape criticism.]

He drags me through the mud.

My stocks, burned to the ground

My stocks are gone.

My worth, my wealth. Decimated. I am unworthy of human-Ness

Kyla speaks.

She is better than me. She is smarter, she is more put together, she is wiser and older, and best of all the audience loves her.

And she goes off on a tangent, and Steven is not even listening. She may realize this is happening.

He moves the conversation without giving her the validation she needs.

She stays silent until it’s her turn to perform again.

Aba comes on

He’s right, victory lap. He was right all along.

He says “I get to shine”.

And he does, so bright.

And it burns

Kyla has to take her stage again, she wants to share the stage. She wants to shine. She wants to share.

Kyla says Steven is simply too likable, that is his problem. His response

“Cringe”

Steven is the victim.

I’m reminded of how small and silly this world is.

this very small place, Steven can control. It’s his. He calls himself a sociopath 4 times; and his orbiters jump to empathy.

No you’re not a sociopath. You’re just hurt. You’re just so…hurt. Please, just admit you actually are upset by this, I’m so sorry this happened to you, again. You can’t trust anyone. You’re too forgiving.

He makes excuses for max. Now. He shmoozes. He masturbates to his audience. He gets to have empathy for max. He is the victor, he is the guy.

He is god!

Max is Judas.

But Steven has empathy for Judas.

He ejactulates [sic] his empathy into the audience.

Aba asks Steven , almost on the money; he asks why uses us as entertainment. But somehow, it’s not stevens fault. Not his responsibility. It can’t be. It is maxs. It is mine. Aba says it’s max and I’d [sic] fault. We are bad people. We are bad people for wanting to use the big opportunity we've been given by a big streamer with no boundaries, Steven is just too good.

And I can not speak. I won’t. I am already burned. Already scalded. Nothing I say is correct, I live in delusion. My narrative is up in the air. I can say nothing. I watch horrified.

Stevens [sic] reminds Kyla he is a sociopath, and she does not believe him. And he even calls her kyra. The wrong name.

Steven explains to Kyla how he uses us for content.

And Kyla does not listen to him tell her who he is

He is telling her who he is,

And she does not hear him

He said it again, he is a sociopath, he doesn't care about this

She does not believe him

I wonder what would happen if a friend were to ask him what he’d done wrong

He calls max a narcissist. For a year he’s groaned about armchair psychiatry and peer diagnosis. It doesn’t pertain. Not to max. Steven KNOWS what max is.

Kyla scrambles to tell Steven he’s a good person deep down and needs better friends and richness

And Steven

Calls her a “max”

A weapon.

He says she’s mind raping him. That he is just this person. He just doesn’t feel.

Kyla goes silent.

Shot dead with “max” bullets.

Max, who was one of his closest friends, a week before.

He promises for the 3rd day in a row to nuke all mention of me. He doesn't. The engagement is too good. He doesn't.

Kelly jeans says she wound me up on purpose. She knew it’d be easy after I cried on stream. She knows I'm spiraling. She likes it because I exploded on her in a panel and I have differing views on sex work.

So I am no longer human.

She said she’d think it was fun. Kyla, the psychology buff, laughs. Steven laughs, Everyone laughs. Then is a half hearted sigh of disappointment and they move on

I message max, sobbing. He is his usual self. Caring, there when I need him but vaguely distant because he knows I don't trust him, and he doesn't want our narratives to get mixed up when we're both emotional. He is hyper aware of the manipulative narcissist label that's been hurled at him. He wants to keep us both safe.

Shaelin asks if I'm eating.

Max mostly just tells me to write how I feel.

I do. I write this. I look back up at stevens stream.

And last, Steven reads a text from Ana.

Ana laughs at me. She jokes about me and max. We are crazy. I am crazy.

but now

I am Ana.

And she laughs, and steven laughs.

And the stream chat roars with favor for her. I’m reminded of the text she sent Steven in those screenshots, “your community likes me now”

she is safe.

And the chat fills

"Ana stocks are up."

[...]

Most reactions were focused on her accusation that Hasan had sex with her young friend. In the November 14 Patreon essay, Lav said her friend was "very young" but "legal," possibly in an attempt to soften the allegation she'd made several weeks prior in ChudLogic's Discord server, where she'd written that her friend was "like 17."

It didn't work. Exactly as she feared, her claim about Hasan would eclipse everything else she'd said. ChudLogic and Ahrelevant, two of Destiny's most loyal orbiters, did a nearly three-hour stream where they reviewed her essay, but displayed a screenshot of her Discord message, dated September 23, 2022:

I think Hasans outrage against everything is really funny because he slept with my friend when she was like 17 and he was 24

A 30-second clip of ChudLogic's stream showing the September screenshot was uploaded to the popular Subreddit Livestream Fail with the title "Lavlune claims Hasan slept with her 17 year old friend [more context below]."

Link | Archive

It received 2.8k upvotes–enough to force Hasan to deny the allegation on stream (he called it a "ridiculous slanderous lie.")

The story was picked up by the 6-million-subscriber YouTuber Philip DeFranco, who said, "It all appears to start with a Discord message from a streamer by the name of Lavlune back in September."

The unsubstantiated Hasan allegation, having been successfully tied to the Patreon essay, sank Lav's criticisms of Destiny instantly.

ChudLogic and Ahrelevant spent the rest of the stream painstakingly dismissing anything that cast Destiny in a bad light.

On the topic of Destiny still sexting Ana after smearing her as a stalker and monetizing her psychological distress:

Ahrelevant: From my perspective, a lot of the many different strategies that Destiny tried, one of them, one of the larger ones, was him trying to shut down all conversation about Ana. So not necessarily providing pushback against people calling her crazy or anything, but saying if you speak about her at all, just, you know, timeout, stop talking, shut up and stuff like that. [...] Maybe that's what they mean when they're referencing [...] "did nothing to quell the idea that they're a psycho stalker," but the point about exploiting and Ana's sobs and mental breakdowns for views–that one, I would have to talk with them specifically about that, because I feel like what they'd be appealing to was the intervention streams and stuff where they would, I think at one point they got, what was it, that person who was studying to be a therapist or something, to have conversations with them and either mediate–and I don't feel like that was just exploiting Ana's sobs and mental breakdowns for views. I feel like he was trying to make their relationship either amicable or something, and he just tried so many different strategies and different ways of going about it. I haven't seen anything firsthand that says, "Destiny was trying to exploit Anna's mental breakdown for views," but I don't know, I might be wrong.

ChudLogic: I barely–I kind of got [a] stick and touched it with the end of the stick, and then a bunch of fucking autistic DGGers were screeching at me in chat, 'cause I don't even know what was going on. So, you know, I think this is one of those dramas where you need to really know the lore and understand the lore to know what the right analysis is or what to say, etc. Like any drama, but this particularly because of how complex it is, the ins and outs."

(This was particularly frustrating to me, as ChudLogic had privately told me that he believed "sexual misconduct" would be a good way to describe Destiny's behavior rather than "sexual abuse." After this stream, when I demanded to know why his coverage was almost exclusively critical of Lav and barely mentioned Destiny at all, despite him being the person in the position of power, ChudLogic wrote to me:

I don't have hard proof of anything beyond Steven sexting Ana (which is wrong and I have said is wrong and he shouldn't have done it) and I know that he sleeps with orbiters, again something I have said publically [sic] I think is wrong and he shouldn't do that

When we spoke, I was trying to find a less severe word than sexual abuse in regards to his interactions with Ana. Misconduct seemed closest, one issue with this is that what framework are we analysising this misconuct [sic]? There are no formalised code of conduct beyond TOS, and nothing Steven has done has broken that. So no obviously I am not going to put a video out with a claim I can in no way substantiate.

On Destiny telling me that Lav was self-harming to get me to join their Discord call:

ChudLogic [after a long bout of laughter]: The bait and switch is funny, I'm sorry, I can't help it, okay? The idea that you would say to someone, "Get in here someone's about to fucking top themselves!" You get it, it's just a bait and switch, okay, I shouldn't be laughing, I can't help it. It is what it is.

During the stream, ChudLogic said Destiny was DMing him and read the messages aloud:

ChudLogic: Can I enter my testimony lmao. Melina was listening to me the entire time, I'm being 100% honest. They can leak a call if they say I'm lying. Lav was begging for Max to join the call the entire time because she needed her daddy there to talk to me. He finally joined at the end and was fucking silent for like 10 minutes. He would only speak to say. "Lav this isn't a good idea, Lav we shouldn't talk to him, Lav there's no reason to talk to him about this." Then he fucking dipped lmfao. I never ever ever told her to denounce Max, I told her she could do whatever she wants with him, she's free to talk to him or whatever lmfao, this is like 99% lies.

November 14, 2022: Destiny DMed Lav.

Destiny: There is literally zero reason to message you but I just have to let you know how profoundly fucking retarded you are to think that **I** am ""gaslighting"" you in a call that I have absolutely nothing to gain from. But the dude who is referring you to talk to his fucking PARTNER (cult behavior btw LOL) when you're upset is absolutely not the one trying to manipulate you LMFAO.

Lav: steven, what the fuck do you want me to say

you literally gaslit the FUCK out of me. you cant be wrong.

Destiny: LOL

I am wrong about TONS of things, me giving you my perspective is not fucking ""GASLIGHTING"""

Stop using psych terms for everything holy fuck","",""

you are destroying your ability to honestly assess the world

Lav: why are you messaging me

did you want a last lick

i am leaving this world.

you are unscathed

what could you possibly want

the streaming world, not the world....that was a bit too ominous,

im not killing myself lol

Destiny: It feels ultra fucking stupid to say this and it's an ultra fucking stupid waste of time but I am actually a little irked at how unbelievably sideways everything went, when I made every effort to be more than decent to you. For you to come out with this idea that I'm an abuser and to flip everything on its head and do the crying voice and all this insane shit is just absolutely unreal to me. I don't think I've ever had someone backstab me this much over something so little before. I feel stupid even typing it out.

Lav: steven. you are an abuser.

"i dont think youre a bad person.

but you undoubtedly are abusive.

its crazy making you cant see it.

its CRAZY MAKING

Destiny: I can't tell if you're lying, if Max poisoned your brain or if you're honestly just way fucking dumber than I thought, but the framing you have on almost EVERYTHING is fucking wrong. I told you a MILLION TIMES not to leak that fucking Hasan shit, and in your mind it's because...??? I was holding it over your head??? I said not to because I KNEW there was no good evidence for it and I KNEW you would get fucked for it, and now look at what's happening today???

You are MAKING YOURSELF CRAZY.

By letting Max fucking PROGRAM YOU.

Lav: maybe youre both fucking programing me then

Destiny: ???????

If I wanted to fucking DESTROY you I could literally just leak a recording of you calling me the n word from two nights ago in that convo you said I was ""gaslighting you"", just to add onto the pile-on. I have no idea why you think I'm so vindictive against you when I could be SO MUCH WORSE.

Lav: i dont know steven. i know your situation is fucked up. youre sick.

Destiny: How am I SICK???

Lav: youre literally threatening me now.

Destiny: I am literally the only honest person in this disgusting fucking world of losers and narcissists' and crazy people.

How am I "threatening" you????

Are you actually insane????

Lav: what the fuck do you think this is

[Lav linked to Destiny's previous message about leaking a recording of their recent call.]

just to add onto the pile-on. I have no idea why you think I'm so vindictive against you when I could be SO MUCH WORSE."

Lav: also... did you record the fucking call?

Destiny: It's me pointing out that if I were ACTUALLY an "abuser" or "gaslighter" or whatever there are a BILLION other things I could do to hurt you.

This all fucking stemmed from SUBREDDIT POSTS.

• • SUBREDDIT POSTS**

Lav: steven. no. its didnt just stem from those .

Destiny: It absolutely did.

Well

Subreddit posts and then the Max programming.

Lav: steven

Destiny: LavLune

Lav: is this a joke

Destiny: Why are we speaking like this is a movie scene?

…

Lav: what are you talking about

are you ok

Destiny: What's the joke?

Lav: you literally love this

its sick

Destiny: Love what?

Lav: did you record that call

Destiny: I enjoy conflict and stuff yeah, but not generally THIS level of backstabbing, and it's usually by people I didn't like much, or didn't open up personally to.

Lav: you just threatened me with

[Lav started a voice call but Destiny didn't answer.]

Destiny: Do you really think I threatened you with it

I'm not talking to you right now

lol

Lav: youre literally talking to me right now

Destiny: I'm typing to you

Lav: and the typing is retarded

record the call

Destiny: I'm doing work stuff I don't want to get roped into a huge call

Lav: i dont care

Destiny: I prefer the text anyway, so you can't say I'm "gaslighting" you

Lav: RECORD THE CALL

Destiny: I'm so curious, when Max left that call "with his integrity in tact" or whatever the fuck

Why do you think he was scared to say a single thing when we were all 3 on the call?

Lav: he wasnt scared he didtn know how to fucking approach you

youore a hard person to approach

Destiny: I'm not at all, I'm a super easy person to approach, what do you mean?

Lav: anytime someome is vulnerable around you , you start to make fun of them

or say theyre wrong

holy. fuck.

Destiny: Is this just, you just make shit up?

Are you just used to never having anyone push back on you ever? Is that's what's happening?

Lav: if youre interested in hearing what i have to say to you, i will talk on a call you can do whatever you want with. the typing is too much. i havent slept in days and my fingers are not working.

Destiny: Okay goodnight

Lav: youre insane.

youre actually insane

Destiny: Now you're the one crazy making LOL

Destiny: I have plenty of conversations with people who are vulnerable around me. I've had intimate conversations with YOU. You're just upset that I push back in a convo where someone is claiming I'm a fucking serial sexual abuser? like lol

Lav: yea the problem is push back.

not that i feel completley like an open sore around you and you cant even hold a bit of space for me or my feelings

or acknowledge the position were in

Destiny: I've held a TON of feelings for you. You literally admitted to LYING to me when checking up on you. I don't know what else I'm supposed to do, treat you like a 4 year old?

Lav: no you HAVENT

you asked once, i have to take responsibility but you also saw the state i was in in the diary entry

IT IS CLEAR I WAS NOT HANDLEING THINGS WELL

Destiny: You never communicated any of that to me.

What am I supposed to say/do?

Lav: YOURE SO FUCKING SMART

you fucking knew

Destiny: I'm smart but I'm not a MIND READER and I'm not here to revoke you of all of your autonomy.

Lav: you knew because i cried ON STREAM to you

Destiny: Bro you are literally hopping on stream EVERY DAY to get into more conversations, how the fuck am I supposed to know you are suicidal/destroying yourself doing this after checking in and you say you are fine????

Was I just supposed to say "Okay Lav, sorry, I know you said you're okay and you want in, but I'm just gonna cut you off"

?????????

Lav: I don’t know

Destiny: You have this whole narrative built in your head but none of it reduces to any fact in the world. It's all invented shit that's a story that doesn't line up with ANYTHING.

Like if you could show a SINGLE time you reached out to me privately where I blew you off or ignored you I think you'd have a lot more space to complain

Lav: You at the very least shouldn’t try and publically embarrass me

Destiny: But **I** reached out to **you** and you said you were fine.

Lav: Steven you knew.

Destiny: I *didn't*!!!!!! Even by your **own admission** I was telling you that I would defend your takes when you weren't there so people weren't just dogpilling or shitting on you.

Remember that *the only reason you're friends with Max today is that I reached out on your behalf and poked him about you two talking and getting you unbanned from his Discord server.*

Like if you made private requests of me I'd do my best to help.

You're acting like I'm this evil monster to you in private or whatever and that's not true, you are just transferring every negative you saw on my subreddit about you to me???

Lav: ugh

steven youre not evil .

Destiny: omg stop

with the word games please

LOL

"You're not evil...you're just an abuser with no consideration for other people who is also maybe sexually abusive."

Also notice you're completely changing subject when you see you are just completely wrong on the fact of the matter.

Do you think I don't notice that??

I can't tell if you're a manipulator, maybe I'm giving Max too much credit.

Lav: how do i respond to these things

max and i do not talk about this stuff like you think we do. max has his own personal scenario with you.

Destiny: You don't, I don't care

Lav: im sorry you feel backstabbed.

Destiny: nothing I say is going to convince you of anything, you don't care about any facts, you have your story in your head

no you don't lol

Lav: i feel used.

Destiny: When you even told me "I'm the one who told Anna to come on" I even gave you credit afterwards in chat about it when people were complaining about you

Lav: i know.

Destiny: It's so stupid

I just wanted to vent at you

And let you hear my ANGER

Lav: can you please. please. call me.

Destiny: 😡

No

I'm tired and just finished emails I want to sleep

And honestly the baby voice shit just triggers the fuck out of me and I would lose it

Lav: so you made sure i wouldnt be able to

nice

Destiny: dw tomorrow you'll be telling a ton of people this convo was just me gaslighting you the entire time or whatever anyway

it's all goochi

Lav: i cant do baby voice im on too much klonopin

im not streaming anymore. why would i tell anyone.

Destiny: "idk apparently you have no problem telling literally every single person who DMs you or every single person who talks in a server about all of my shit

Lav: i got out of the hospital at 5am this morning. i dont want to keep doing this.

Destiny: And you're even doing the classic woman move of shit-talking me sexually when I kept our hook-up a secret for SO LONG despite you constantly making fun of other women who hooked up with me

It's honestly such a bitch move, it's insane how fucking snakey you are, and then the entire time you're accusing me of being abusive/manipulative while you're even shit-talking me sexually LOL jesus

Lav: steven i said the head was fantastic publically in my discord server, nobody screen shotted it

you know my gripes with foreskin, thats not a you thing.

[Destiny sent a screenshot of a November 13 tweet from Ethan Ralph, a far right streamer and adversary of Destiny's: Lav is claiming behind the scenes that Destiny never actually fucked her...that she only let him perform oral sex on her and that he "seemed sad" that it didn't go further. Said she was "grossed out" by his member and only touched it briefly.]

Destiny: can you imagine if I said anything like this about you behind the scenes

you'd be *livid*

Like it's such a standard bitch move for a woman to do, too, aghhh it's actually so predictable and shitty

And somehow you honestly come away from this thinking you're the victim and I'm abusive

It's insane

While you're leaking/threatening to leak all sorts of random shit about me and Melina's relationship and everything on your fucking Patreon

I haven't said anything about you or Connor or leaked any personal info about you or anything at all

Lav: First of all this is just me trusting the wrong person

Destiny: You are sending these DMs to STRANGERS IN YOUR DISCORD

How do you think I got DMs between you and Max???

Lav: I’m so, so wildly upset that got out

And I am sorry

Destiny: please stop apologizing you have leaked so much random shit about me to so many fucking people

Lav: Sure but this one feels worse

The other ones you literally said you didn’t care about

Like everyday for a week

[Destiny sent Lav screenshot of Discord messages written by her, reading: The way I was able to get on the stream is because I had critisim [sic] of max

Steven wanted me to destroy max

That's why I fucking joined

Steven didn't understand max he saw a ducking cintent [sic] opportunity]

Destiny: The way you characterize everything is just so insane

Lav: This is true

This is literally fucking true

YOU LOVED THE CONTENT

Steven: Didn't you ask me initially to come on because you had a big disagreement with Max and wanted to moderate????

Yeah it was fun to moderate the convo because it was interesting OF COURSE.

I didn't bring you on to ""DESTROY MAX"" though???

Lav: You knew how I felt about him

I told you I was going to kill him

Steven: You're a little 24 year old spicy Jewish girl, I don't think you're actually going to "kill" or "destroy" him I thought you just wanted to e-fight with him, which is essentially what it was. Why are you making this out like it was such a HUGE deal, you guys just fought about some random stuff on a call-in show?

At that time were you even like a streamer????

Do you honestly think I was thinking "oh yes, god, yes, this girl is going to fucking DESTROY Max" ????

Like you were the one begging to get into Max's calls to attack him, even, and you HATED him back that, I never pushed you towards any of that.

Lav: You deleted your messages

Destiny: [...] yeah of course I fucking deleted my messages, you're literally leaking sex shit to fucking groypers idk what other personal info of mine you're gonna leak

Lav: I get that yea

Destiny: Yeah you asked to come on and chat with him because you talked to him once already on your show or something and you thought it went poorly???

Lav: Yes and then you were the one who told me to get on

Destiny: What am I supposed to do, Lav, when you're asking? "No, you can't come, I don't want you to because you're not ready for it, you can't handle it."

Yeah of course

because you asked????????????

Lav: Um yea

Destiny: There are tons of people that come onto my stream because they ask to come on?????

Lav: You should’ve been a bit more forthcoming with your community and what I was getting into probably idk

Destiny: What would you have said back then, do you think?

"Steven, I've done OnlyFans for years, I was in the music industry and I have >600k followers on TikTok, I'll be fine lol."

Lav: The same thing I said in that message

Protect me

Destiny: This whole "protect me" narrative didn't start until like two weeks ago when you started to get SIGNIFICANT blowback from people online.

Lav: Imagine that

Destiny: But you don't even protect yourself, do you have any idea what kind of reputation stake you're asking from me? I'm already going pretty far out of my way to tell people to chill and shit, which I was doing EVEN IN MY CHAT, and by removing certain Reddit threads and banning certain commenters.

But while I was doing that you were being insanely provocative the ENTIRE TIME on Twitter.

And in Discord chats.

Lav: You told me you weren’t going to do that.

You said I wasn’t a kid

And you weren’t going to protect me.

You said the same thing to max.

Your moderators did not do a fucking thing

Especially in the last 2 weeks

They made it worse.

Destiny: It's not a thing born out of MALICIOUS INTENT, I just can't baby people through my subreddit, the moderation doesn't work that way. The answer, if it's honestly too much, IS TO DISENGAGE.

You can't keep kicking the hornet's nest and then get mad that I'm not doing everything in my power to stop the hornets.

Lav: To some extent I understand this.

Destiny: "To some extent I understand this"

Lav: I did just say that yea

Destiny: Bro you are literally tweeting out with the GOAL of attacking my community and getting them riled up.

It's not "to some extent"

You were going DEAFCON [sic] 5

Lav: Yea….by responding ti all the hate with, I’ll keep coming on.

That’s huge.

Destiny: And like, the WORST thing I've done to you and potentially not moderate my community hard enough???? Meanwhile you're comparing me to Harvey Weinstein????????

Lav: Very villainous.

Destiny: Those were YOUR WORDS!!!! You compared yourself to a villain!!!!!!!!!!

Lav: Steven we met

Talked on and off for a year. I start streaming, you encourage me to. You encourage me to come on. We both know it’s helping my streaming career, I enter the area

To argue with other people you sleep with

Destiny: Sure, because I think you're smart/funny and you'd do decently there (which you did, more than decently

????????????? There are TONS of people to argue with, idk why you fixate on some more than others, idc if you're arguing with people I sleep with or not.

Initially it was with MAX who I have no sexual relationship with.

Why would you even take that angle???

Lav: Because it felt WEIRD. It felt weird. That’s not normal.

Destiny: This is such a weird retrospective framing.

Lav: And then there are cuts of your wife talking shit about me

WHO IM LITERALLY KEEPING A SECRET FOR

like what the fuck kind of environment

Destiny: If it FELT WEIRD why not SAY SOMETHING. The ONLY one who kept bringing up the sexual dynamic was YOU, CONSTANTLY. You would CONSTANTLY say shit like "*Brittany didn't you fuck Steven?!*" and making fun of Chaeiry's twitlonger with me.

Are you really *incapable* of removing yourself from that environment? Why are you *joining* intentionally, sometimes leaving other panels to do so, and throwing yourself into that environment?

Lav: Are you dumb

You know the answer to that

Destiny: What is the answer to this?

Lav: The same reason you can’t remove yourself

The attention. The career opportunity. Having fun in those high moments, chasing them after the lows

Destiny: *Stop*. Our reasons are not the same. If I felt like I was being severely mentally damaged I would remove myself.

Lav: You literally are

Destiny: You feel like you are **actually** suffering, so it's different.

I'm literally not.

Lav: Okay lol

Destiny: Good mind-read, Max Jr.

Lav: You weaponizing this

Hilarious

Destiny: More psych words. Spooky.

Lav: Anyone who thinks there’s depth

An enemy.

Destiny: Oh, are we back to doing the slam poetry now?

Lav: Do you think that hurts me

Destiny: My words.

Ignored.

My feelings.

Decided for me.

Nothing I say means anything.

Nothing I do is good enough.

There's only one way to

explain this

I must be talking to Lav again.

Lav: I am literally a songwriter, as a job. In a union. For years.

I write like that.

Sorry?

Destiny: I don't care if you write like that, it's just annoying when you become dramatic and use the drama to refuse to engage with anything.

Lav: Nice

Cool

Howre you and Melina

Destiny: Doing swell, just gymmed tonight, she came up and slept, I was gonna sleep but decided I wanted to vent to you about you. 🙃

Lav: Can’t say I’m surprised you’re choosing another woman over your wife.

Destiny: Based personal insults.

Lav: Following your lead

Do you think it’s possible

Genuinely

That your skull is just too thick to see another apt perspective of your behavior

I’ve driven myself crazy trying to see it your way at the expense of the way I feel and my morals

I’ve made excuses for you in my head with the Ana situation.

Destiny: I get tons of perspectives and feedback about my behavior constantly from like 50 different avenues on the internet. I'm constantly evaluating and re-evaluating how I engage with my platform, the people on it, and people I speak with.

I have changed my mind over a number of issues relating to these things constantly over the years. The idea that I'm the one who just isn't understanding things, and you, who is completely new to this area with almost no experience, has it all figured out and I'm just missing things, is almost impossible.

Lav: No you fucking aren’t

You’re fucking numb to it in real life.

I don’t think I have it all right

I know you have engaged in emotionally abusive behavior.

Destiny: Just because I'm numb to it doesn't mean I'm not constantly evaluating how it impacts other people.

???

Lav: You need a therapist

Destiny: In my teens and early 20's? Yeah, sure, but I don't really do that much anymore.

Not nearly as much as you do.

Lav: You’re right

I’m sending you my bill

You see I’m clearly spiraling

You’re like, hmmmm good idea is going over lav having a mental break down and having august upload it on YouTube for a quarter million views

Good stuff.

Destiny: I can help someone who is spiraling. I can't help someone who is spiraling who 1) refuses to tell me they are until it's too late, and 2) is constantly attacking/trying to destroy me on the way down.

Lav: YOURE TRYING TO DESTROY ME

and max.

Destiny: I don't make calls over content going onto my channel, but again, your worst "spirals" are happening on your Twitter and in your Discords. *You are freely and continually engaging in these spirals over and over again.*

Max yeah, you? Not at all, I'm not even trying.

Actually I'm not even trying with Max.

Lav: You don’t control your channel. Huge.

Destiny: You're both so fucking delusional, doing this over a few subreddit posts.

Lav: Or your subreddit. Or your chat.

Destiny: I have control over them, but I let them operate with a lot of autonomy, it runs better than trying to micromanage things.

Lav: Hasan called me out today, his community went crazy. Then he said to cool it and in 10 minutes everything about me was deleted, and I’ve gotten 10 comments about it from his community.

This guy who owes me nothing

In fact, the opposite

Reallyyyyy put things in perspective.

Destiny: ?????????????

You literally have like 1,000+ comments about you on LSF right now, what are you talking about.

And Hasan has no community to moderate, no shit, he has no fucking community.

Once his stream shuts off they scatter to the wind.

Lav: And you have….

A cult

Destiny: "I see you're upset, go talk to my girlfriend that I have videos of me screaming at/making cry on my YT channel."

You are actually fucking insane.

Lav: Yea this has driven me crazy.

Destiny: [We'll] see what happens in 2-3 months when you guys disagree on something and you realize you're paired up with an actual fucking NPD psycho

Lav: Paired up?

We are friends

He doesn’t tell me anything about what he’s doing

I have not known anything

He told me he was going to talk to other women

That’s it.

Destiny: You guys obviously talk about way more than that.

But I don't care to know, I'm not interested.

Just saying, the fall-out on that one will be extreme.

Lav: Otherwise he has just checked in because I had a literal mental breakdown and had to go to the hospital.

Destiny: But okay, I'm going to bed.

Lav: He is just being nice. You’re painting him like a fucking villain

Like an overlord

Supernatural

IM LEAVING THE SPACE

Destiny: He's not "being nice", he's playing you hard, that's why when you first came on you fucking hated him and he painted you as an actual fucking pedophile.

Lav: IVE SAID EVERYTHING I HAD TO SAY

Destiny: You're not leaving anything.

Lav: IM NOT INVILVED [sic]

I am.

Destiny: You'll still be streaming/tweeting/in Discords a week from now.

Lav: I fully am.

Destiny: Okay, we'll see, bucko.

Lav: I’m about to kill myself

I can not be here.

Destiny: Alright, I understand.

See you next week!!!!

Lav: I told Connor to literally not allow me.

Ok. I’ll see you then. Hopefully by then you’ll have another 20 something year old woman on stream to emotionally cheat on your wife with.

I hope she’s Jewish

Destiny: I'll do my best!

December 4, 2022: Ahrelevant uploaded a stream to YouTube with the title “LavLune ENTERS MY CHAT as Phemoid and RESPONDS to ALLEGATIONS and ACCUSATIONS.”

Speaking directly to Lav, whom he knew was watching, Ahrelevant said:

“You falsely accused a guy of statutory rape because you wanted a fucking, I don't know, a moment in the sunshine to get away from what Destiny said. I don't know, you're a piece of shit, homie. I don't know what to tell you. You're one of the worst people I've ever met in my entire life. I've literally met people that rob and scam for a fucking living that are way better morally than you. I have no idea how the fuck you get off on doing that shit. You are literally one of the worst people I've ever seen, even on the fucking internet. Jesus Christ, you're a terrible person. Just take accountability for your fucking actions. Once in your goddamn life, holy shit.”

December 10, 2022: In Chudlogic's video titled "MENTALLY ILL OnlyFans ***** Wants Me to DELETE This Video, I Leak DMs Instead," he said:

"I'm gonna leak the DMs now. I'm gonna leak the DMs I've got with her because she's a fucking stupid bitch. [...] She comes on and she acts so fucking smug. And she acts all like, you know, oh, yeah, blah blah blah, right? She was in my fucking DMs absolutely desperately begging. 'Please delete the video of me and please, please I just want to move on please. I'm scared. I don't want to come forward anymore. I'll never say anything about it again. I'll quit streaming. I embarrassed myself, I shouldn't have come on please.' [...] 'I'm asking you from human to human, not content, outside of the streaming world. I am not okay. I am not okay in that video, please. Of course I was happy to have a panel up where I defeat everyone. Delete that one also, delete all traces of me, I'll leave the internet. This one where I'm sobbing intermittently and was clearly in the middle of being gaslit is not good. I should not have come on when I didn't know which way was up.'

"Get the fuck out of here you lying bitch. I knew she was lying back then. I knew that she was fucking lying to me. I knew it was a load of bullshit. Okay, I also had fucking Max in my ear. I also had fucking Max in my ear, "Oh Lav's not okay, Lav's not okay, she's not doing well. Absolute fucking poppycock, absolute fucking poppycock, okay. There's nothing wrong with her. There's nothing fucking wrong with her. It's all lies. It's all bullshit. Then the second she fucking comes back she's coming for mine and Ahrelevant's neck. [...] You're pretending to be upset. You're pretending to have this mental distress to try and manipulate people, but that shit don't work with me, okay? I don't give a fuck if some fucking lying manipulative bitch comes to me and is crying to me, okay? Cry me a fucking river, I don't care, right? It's complete bullshit, it's complete nonsense. She's making it all up to try and get her way."

(What I'd said was: Lav is doing very badly. Do not leak this information.

But I'm telling you because you are part of the reason

And I want you to rethink what you are doing.)

Later in the video, he added: "Listen, you stupid fucking whore, if you want to call me a loser, you go ahead and call me a fucking loser, okay? That's fine, you do you. All I'm pointing out is you're the most inconsistent bitch I've ever met in my entire fucking life, okay? And you simultaneously will say I'm quitting streaming, and you'll be in my fucking DMs literally fucking begging me on your hands and fucking knees, your hands and fucking knees! You're begging me to take videos down. 'Please, just please, please I'm so mentally ill, please I'm begging, you got to take the video down. I'm begging you. Please, please, please, please I'm so sick. I'm so sick in the head, please. I'm so sick in the head. You've got to take the video down!' And then later on you're going, 'Yeah I'm gonna call you a loser on stream.' You were in my DMs crying, you stupid bitch. You were crying to me to take that fucking video down, and now here you are acting all fucking chill about it. Give me a fucking break."

For the next few months, Lav and I kept in close contact, mostly talking about how the falling out with Destiny and subsequent dogpiling had affected her.

February 27, 2023: Lav and I did a stream together. We talked about pornography, misogyny, sex, and our feelings about Destiny.

March 4, 2023: Destiny watched my February 27 conversation with Lav and reacted to it on stream.

In the video, Lav began by saying to me, "I prepared for this by watching a few of your videos. [...] I've not watched a ton of your videos. I watched the Gender Narrative, I watched you and Shaelin fight–I watched you abuse Shaelin–and then I saw some of your streams. So it was crazy to see your other content. It was like, because now we have an established relationship, so it really was like watching like a friend instead of just–"

Destiny, reacting, said: "Do you think they've banged? I'm so curious. [...] If he was asked, I wonder if he would honestly say. The answer ought to be no, because it would be wildly inappropriate if that's his daughter. But given everything else that's happened, if that's his daughter, quote, unquote." He trailed off.

(The answer is no.)

Lav told me that, after not speaking to Destiny for months, she'd almost joined a streaming panel while he was on it. Destiny had gotten word from the panel host and shared the news with his audience.

Lav: [...] All the people in the chat were like, "Lav, our queen." It was really overwhelmingly positive. It almost fucking got me. I almost, I wish–I could taste it. I could taste my comeback story. I could taste my stocks rising. I could taste being valiant. And winning favor. And then I was like, I know where this ends. I know where this ends.

Me: Where?

Lav: It ends in public humiliation if I say the wrong thing. Like, unbridled public humiliation from some of the worst people on the internet. [...] I was like, ready, and then. yeah, and then he left and I was like, that was a God shot. That was a sign from God. He saved me.

Me: You think you were gonna actually go?

Lav: Yeah. I would have. [...] Everyone loves a good comeback. It feels incredible to get positive attention from Steven's orbit.

Destiny [reacting]: No, Lav. You're just obsessed with any positive attention, period. You've conducted yourself in the same manner through your entire fucking TikTok life, and now you're doing it in your streamer life, and right now the person that you really want positive attention from is Max. It's not positive attention from my community. My community isn't a special giver of positive attention, she just wants positive attention from any possible fucking place she can get it. [...] When chat is saying like, "Oh our queen," does she really think that people are like "Oh, we miss her so much, we love her and cherish her, our queen is back?" Does she not realize people just mean, "Holy shit, it's content time."

[...]

Lav: I would have made such a brutal choice for myself if I would have gone on. I almost folded. I almost folded.

Destiny [reacting]: God, it's so dramatic.

Lav: It's just so sad, like part of me–at that moment I was like, "Everything's gonna be okay." [...] I will gaslight myself into thinking that this was all just like a big misunderstanding constantly. I'm like, we all love each other really, everything will be fine one day, we'll all just be fine again, we just had a really bad fight. But we can persist and we can just hear each other's feelings and it will be normal. But that's also the relationship I have with my mother, and that has yet to happen, so.

Destiny [reacting]: Jesus Christ, what?

Lav: It does suck, though, because I miss Steven also.

Destiny [reacting]: Uh oh. Not good, red alert.

Lav: I miss the attention, but I also miss Steven.

Destiny [reacting]: Red Alert. Don't let her get away with that one, Max. You gotta bring her back into the fold.

Lav: Sorry, is that–are you about to mute me? Too deep?

Me: I mean, they're gonna talk about you. I don't know if they're gonna dogpile you, but yeah, I'm ready to mute you.

Lav: I'll lock up the sharps just in case.

Me: Well, that's a question. How bad of a place do you think it would put you in? Say you chased the high and then you were excoriated again. How much of a self-harming place does that put you in?

Lav: I think when I look back at the worst times of my life–

Destiny [reacting]: The worst times of your life were petty internet drama with me? Is that really possible?

Lav: Being sent to the cult when I was a teenager, and November of last year.

Destiny [reacting]: [...] Oh, it's the same. It's a tie! [Cackling] Okay.

Lav: I was the worst I have ever–I was so… I mean, it was bleeding into my relationship. I had a panic attack where I was sitting on the couch with Connor.

Destiny [reacting]: Poor Connor.

Lav: And just–

Me: Wait, stop, stop, stop, stop.

Lav: Okay.

Me: On a scale of one to 10, if 10 is suicidal.

Lav: 10. Absolutely, 10.

Destiny [reacting]: What?!

I read Lav a quote from the October 27, 2022 stream where Aba told Destiny he shouldn't platform mentally ill people, and Destiny had countered that Lav and I are healthy adults who can make our own decisions.

Lav: Well, I have to be healthy. Like, I have to be healthy. Ana has to be healthy, because he's having sexual relationships with us.

Destiny [reacting]: To be clear, and I know Lav likes to fudge the timelines on that, but I hooked up with Lav months before she ever started regularly coming on stream. If she wants to challenge that timeline, she's free to do so.

Destiny and Lav had their sexual encounter on September 1 and their falling out was November 10. Additionally, Destiny asked Lav to hang out during TwitchCon, writing to her on October 5: "just eating you out for an entire weekend 👼."

This is a good time to point out a tactic Destiny employs fairly often. Even though you can knock down his claims about the timeline pretty easily, by even engaging with it in the first place you allow him to smuggle in the premise that the timeline is important to the point that Lav is making: In order to have sex with Lav, humiliate her, or both, Destiny needs to define her as healthy enough to consent. But when Lav and Ana call him abusive, his defense is that they are mentally unwell.

Why would it matter whether it was one month or three months separating those events? Is he arguing that they lost their minds at some point?

By shifting the argument to a timeline dispute, he evades Lav's criticism altogether. However, if you don't engage with the tangential dispute, then he gets to call you a liar uncontested, which discredits your argument.

Destiny [reacting]: But I was not hooking up with her. We weren't sexting, trading nudes, or anything even remotely in that timeframe when she was coming on and she was fighting a lot on my stream. That was not happening. I know that she likes to say this over and over and over again, but to be clear, between me and her, I was the one who was sexually abused if we're going to go by the fact that she leaked our sexual interactions, she made fun of me to a fucking weird Nazi dude online, and she continues to perpetually talk about it in Discords. I've never leaked anything regarding our sexual interactions, and I could. I've never said anything embarrassing about her in our sexual interactions, and I could. But I haven't done that.

[...] And she arguably leveraged that sexual interaction as a bigger TikToker, [...] she has like 600, 700,000 people on TikTok, she arguably leveraged that to get on my stream, if that's the route you want to go, I could [unintelligible] this whole fucking narrative. The idea that I was being abusive [unintelligible] or because we had hooked up in the past, it's so fucking stupid to me. And to take it one step further, I think I leaked the messages on stream–I explicitly, I explicitly DMed her and I said, "Hey, I know we've hooked up in the past and I know you're starting to come on the stream now. I know that we haven't said anything recently but just so you know, nothing we've done in the past or any sexuality we have [is] contingent on you like coming on stream or anything like that. I would never make that type of deal." I explicitly said that in DMs to her. I don't know–I think I leaked that message, somebody might have it in chat. I explicitly said that, but now she said in the future, she said "Well, he only said that to further manipulate me." Which is like, bizarro. [...] I feel like I made all the right steps here, she made all the wrong ones, but somehow in her mind she backwards rationalized this to me being the bad guy.

Reacting to a chat message, he continued.

Destiny: Nice covering your ass? No, fuck off. Hold on. I never cover my ass for sexual assault shit. I don't care to cover my ass. I just don't want it to be weird. [...] I would never want somebody to feel like in order to come on my stream they have to fuck me to do it. It's not fun sexually, it's not good content on stream, and it puts everybody in a really weird spot. Like if there's a girl on my stream that's dogshit content, I want to be able to kick them off because I don't like them. I don't want them to be some weird, like, "Well, you know you fucked me three times. I said you could have at least two hours of content if we fuck," it's just a bad deal all around. Definitely. He was joking? You guys can't joke, you're not allowed to joke because you fucking retards turn every joke you have into something serious two weeks later if I don't say anything about it. At least 30% of my audience that's in here right now, even right now, 30% of the people in here think that the only reason Lav was on my stream was because we were fucking 100%. 30% of you still believe that, even to this day, 30% of you still believe that, even though we weren't hooking up at all when she started coming on stream normally."

Destiny reacted to a challenge in the audience chat: "Look, here's a guy–this guy is serious. 'The only reason, no, but if you weren't looking to do it in the future I don't think she would have come on.' There are a lot of people that actually believe this. The reality is that one, Lav is content, and two, there are a ton of people I can fuck. Why would I leverage my stream to fuck… somebody? I could have been meaner there. Why would I do that? It just doesn't make sense. Why would I hold my content at risk when I have so many random girls DMing me on fucking 12 different platforms? It just doesn't make sense. The only way that can possibly make sense is if you think I'm so fucking desperate for some fucking mid Jewish pussy, you think I'm so fucking [unintelligible] like, 'Oh god I'm never gonna fuck a girl if I don't bring her on my stream blah blah,' and you think that I'm actually so desperate for this person that you actually believe this? It's so fucking frustrating to me. What was that guy's name? Fuck you."

He banned the critic from his chat.

Lav referenced a February 20th stream in which Aba said Destiny's hedonistic lifestyle caused problems for him. As Destiny defended himself, his audience started spamming the "copium" emoji in chat–a frog wearing a gas mask to indicate that someone is "huffing copium," in this case meaning Destiny was coping with his relationship issues by lying to himself. Destiny entered the "!meganuke copium" command in his chat, instantly banning all of the users who had used the emoji. This is a common occurence–he's used the command to ban the copium emoji 21 times in the past year.

Lav: I think I believed him for a really long time until I saw on your subreddit [...] the video of him banning the copium emoji from his chat, and like a simple–just the copium emoji. He was banning people who made him even look slightly bad in a conversation and I was like, people were telling me that I was a dog and to kill myself and that I was just like my mother and you're like "There's nothing I can do."

Destiny [reacting]: Doesn't she say she's just like her mother literally all the time. The kill yourselves–I'm pretty sure people get banned for shit like that. I don't know, if she has examples of people saying "kill yourself" and nobody getting banned, I'd sure like to see it. But, lo and behold, she probably doesn't have any examples of that because she's just making shit up.

Lav: Which, given the relationship we had, felt–

Destiny [reacting]: The relationship we had was basically platonic friends that had hooked up once in the past. Barely.

(As mentioned before, the "just eating you out for an entire weekend" DM from Destiny to Lav was on October 5, only 11 days before he called her a "dumb bitch" on stream. On October 18, Lav told him, "I can not handle the vitriol from your audience." Destiny replied "Bro you are INSANELY COMBATIVE online I have been so unbelievably patient in our conversations but you go so hard over and over again idk what you expect."

Her first ever complaint about his audience's treatment of her was sent two months earlier, on August 8: "Your Reddit is… Self harm.")

Lav: And then [...] he made me feel bad. He was like, "Oh, just because we're in a sexual relationship. I'm supposed to act like a simp–"

Destiny [reacting]: We were, in the past. She makes it sound like she was bouncing from my bedroom to the subreddit. Bro, you're so unhinged. Oh yeah, she tweeted out stuff like this: "As long as y'all hate me, I'll keep coming on Destiny streams," bro, are you serious? Like she's tweeting stuff out like this expecting me to, what, pull her off my stream, and I'm checking in on her privately? [...] 'Might you be talking about sexting/nudes?' No, we weren't sexting or trading nudes either. I think we sexted barely, or traded nudes like twice, like two times. I think both happened before we hooked up. It might have been one time pretty shortly after we hooked up, but by the time she was coming on stream and everything regularly, we were way past–we were months past like any sexual relationship. Like we weren't actively sexual at all. Even in DMs, that's why I don't know why she keeps saying this. Her timeline is super fucked on this.

Lav: That's such a–I'm so sorry I asked, like I'm so sorry, I'm so stupid.

Me: Yeah, so i–

Lav: I don't know why I started crying when you were talking about Aba. Aba's like the big one for me. And I know it is Steven.

Destiny [reacting]: What?

Lav [crying]: But Aba was so mean. Like just so mean for no reason.

Destiny [reacting]: No reason?

Lav: And I'm a big girl, I can handle a lot.

Destiny [reacting]: You're not a big girl. You're a fucking child. A petulant spoiled fucking child who picked up way too many negative traits from her abusive fucking narcissistic mom.

[...]

Me: [...] The point I want to make is that you have said publicly that dogpiling from Steven's community and harassment from Steven's community across multiple different platforms has driven you to the point of being suicidal.

Destiny [reacting]: He's just trying to establish a narrative for his article,

Max: While still gleefully giggling, baiting you.

Lav: And he knew that.

Me: And he knew that. And he still knows it.

Destiny [reacting]: Of course, that's essential, yeah. Encourages it!

[...]

Me: So I guess I just want to make it clear what's happening when he's trying to bait you.

[...]

Lav: I wish we could go back to November.

Me: And do things differently?

Destiny [reacting]: I wish my life was so cushy that these were like the most traumatic moments–is like this kind of like, funny internet drama. I'm actually envious of these two.

Me: Yeah?

Lav: I still feel like this is like all my fault.

Destiny [reacting]: It is. Yeah, sorry. Sometimes you have to be big girl, take responsibility for being a total fucking piece of shit, but, you know.

The same day, Lav did an 8 hour stream with a small streamer named Tuna Chip, who later added the streamers Zonia, Stardust, and Beckett to talk about, among other things, Lav's allegation that Destiny abused her.

Zonia and Lav had been trading attacks the last few days–Zonia posted a video titled "Did Lavlunee/Phemoid KILL Her Cat?", but later took the video down and acknowledged she'd made the accusation merely as "clickbait."

During the stream, Zonia told Lav, "we milk you for lols."

Lav said that Zonia, who is trans, was "struggling with a type of schizoaffective personality disorder in which a grown male thinks that he is a girl."

Later in the stream, Lav argued with Zonia and Stardust about whether it was unfair of her to call Destiny abusive and whether I was being unfair to Destiny by writing this report.

Lav attempted to correct Destiny's false claims around the timeline of the sexual elements in their relationship, but Stardust replied, "He probably invited you to hang out as a friend, right?" Her reasoning was that since Melina hated Lav, Destiny wouldn't have had sex with Lav in the same city as Melina.

At that point, Destiny had finished his own stream, and asked Stardust to bring him in to their current Discord call.

Everyone except Lav agreed to add Destiny to the call (Lav only said "Wait, wait, excuse me?"), and he was added.

Destiny: Okay, just a random timeline question, okay?

Lav: Yes.

Destiny: When you started to come on, and there were the huge 10 to 15,000 viewer streams. I'm pretty sure we had been done doing anything sexual for like weeks or months at that point. Is that true or false?

Lav: Weeks or months are really different, Destiny. That's November 9, it had been two months since we met up. [...] One month since you asked to drive with me to TwitchCon.

Destiny: We didn't meet up at all, right?

Lav: Yes. Which we didn't do. But–are you gonna try to pretend that that wasn't going to be–that we were just going to be like, hee hee friends?

Destiny: I don't know. I have no idea.

Lav: Sure. But it was there, right? [...] We hadn't closed the door.

Destiny: Listen, my door's never closed, okay.

Lav: I know.

Destiny: But what I'm saying is, [...] it's being presented as though you are coming onto my stream into the combat zone, crying in private because of how traumatic it is, and then I'm sexting you at the same time, but there's like at least a month or two–I think you just said two months–of distance between us having any type of sexual relationship and the crazy combat sports you were doing on my stream. No?

Lav: No. Any sort of sexual relationship? Steven, you just said that in October, it could have been–we were still flirting, we had never had the conversation like, "Let's not do this," our last our last in person meetup we had done something sexual together. There was no door that was closed. We were still absolutely flirty with each other. And I think we both like were open to sexual experiences in the future, right? Neither of us had a negative sexual experience with each other. So it's not like there was some moment in which it was like not expected anymore. So yes, I still think that we had an open door policy for our sexual relationship.

Destiny: I'm going to repeat the same question because what you just did was so, like, not anything.

Lav: It also–

Destiny: Wait, hold on, wait, wait, wait, you just said a whole bunch of things. So the reality is, we had–now you can say there was a quote unquote open whatever–but the reality was, we hadn't done anything sexual, I don't even think we'd traded like a pic or vid or anything, for I want to say it was over a month? It might have been two before shit started to blow up.

Lav: The time frame, though, what are you trying to insinuate with bringing up like, "It had been a month," like, what does that–

Destiny: You're making it sound like you're getting extremely traumatized on my stream while we have an active sexual relationship, which was not true.

Lav: First of all, I did not make that claim.

Destiny: Okay, I'm curious if you were to poll your chat or everyone else in this room. Does it seem like she's implying that we–

Lav: With Ana? I absolutely implied that with Ana.

Destiny: Okay, I'm telling you that you implied that with yourself on Max's stream.

Lav: If I implied that, I completely recant it. If I didn't imply that–I don't think I have.

Destiny: Okay, cool. That's good. Okay, do you–at no point in time, either implicitly or explicitly, did I ever say that you had to do some sexual act or send me anything ever to get on my stream. Didn't I say exactly the opposite?

Lav: Do you think that you need to implicitly say something for it to exist?

Destiny: Well, implicit implies it's not being said but it's being implied. Did I ever imply that?

Lav: Did I–wait did I ever did I ever make the claim that that was what–first of all, you're pretend–okay, so let's make it very clear that Max feels differently about this than I do.

Destiny: Well, then why do I care what–okay, well, what is Max's justification?

Lav: This is why I watched your stream today, and I was like, [...] why is he acting like I am saying everything that Max has said?

Destiny: Because you're his star witness there supporting–you guys are both sitting there gaslighting each other that I'm a rapist sexual abuser.

[...]

Destiny: [...] Lav, you called me the Harvey Weinstein of Twitch. What do you think that implies?

Lav: [...] When we go back in our DMS, I send you a scantily clad photo and you say "Welcome to the orbiters club."

Destiny: Yeah, and I asked you if you're doing okay, and you're like, "I still want to fuck you." Of course we joke. Do you really think that that was your entry into my stream?

Lav: I got [permissions in your Discord] after that. I don't know.

Destiny: So, okay. Just to be clear, you're hinging all of my implied sexual coercion on me saying "Welcome to the orbiter club."

Lav: Implied sexual coercion–listen.

Destiny: I just want to hear you say that. You're telling me that you think that was the serious–me saying "welcome to the orbiter club, you've made it because you sent me a picture?"

Lav: I think your implied sexual coercion–this is what I think, because I really do not want anyone to put words in my mouth, okay? I think that you live an extremely messy sexual life, okay? I think that when you mix that with now eight to thirteen thousand people, who are now part of your life parasocially, it is even messier and potentially abusive.

Destiny: Lav, Lav, with all due–

Lav: Let me finish, let me finish. I am aware that a lot of this is just the way that I feel, right? And part of me feels very sheepish and embarrassed that I feel like I expected you to protect me more after–

Destiny: Okay, I'm not gonna let you ramble on this, Lav. With all due respect, the one who's making this message in front of my audience is you and Max.

Lav: Are you fucking kidding, Steven? You, for years, have been known to have the messiest fucking sexual social life in this fucking sphere. Don't you dare.

Destiny: Lav, I have had sexual relations with tons of people where nothing has gone public. You're looking at the most public-facing stuff and trying to condemn all of my sexual relationships on that. If you wanna do that–

Lav: Steven I found you through Ana, I found you through the fucking Ana shit.

Destiny: That's great, and I know of you because of false allegations you've made about other people besides Hasan in the past.

Lav: Here we go. This is what you do. I bring something up and then you have to make me a liar. You can't–

Destiny: Because you've lied. Because you've lied multiple times.

Lav: Steven, you lie all the time, also. You lie all the time, also. And this is what you do, you say, "So what if I'm a liar? You're also a liar." That's not up for fucking debate. We're talking about you right now–

Steven: No, you're obsessively talking about my–

Lav: You don't need to talk about me.

Destiny: I do need to talk about you.

Lav: Obsessively? Steven I haven't talked about you for months!

Destiny: What do you mean, you just had a five-hour struggle session stream on me like four nights ago.

Lav: And before that, when was the last time I spoke about you?

Destiny: Constantly! You don't think I get DMs leaking of you talking shit about me

Lav: Name another time.

Destiny: You do it in private Discords all the time!

Lav: Where? Name another time.

Destiny: Do you want to listen to the audio recordings I have of you talking [about] me in multiple fucking rooms? Lav, why are you pretending that I–

Lav: Yeah, substantiate it. Send it to me in DMs. Substantiate.

Destiny: No, I'm not going to tell you what my source is.

Lav: You have been on stream or for days, weeks, months talking shit about me and I have said fucking nothing publicly, where you have dragged me through the fucking mud every chance you get when anyone comes on and fucking talks shit about me, and you say I'm looping? You go over fucking everything, you also loop, dude. It's a fucking joke.

Destiny: Lav, the only time I bring you guys up are when you bring me up, you're the one that, by the way, sexually abused me by leaking details of our hookups to a guy that you know hates us, [...] I haven't talked about any of you shit-talking [your fiancee] after we fucking hooked up.

Lav: What?!

Destiny: I haven't leaked any of the private shit about our hookup, but you're out here literally giving details to every fucking person–you absolutely have done this and you're doing it constantly in these back rooms.

Lav: I never did that you are a fucking liar. That is ridiculous. I can't even believe that you would try to get a fucking lick in like that. You are disgusting.

Destiny: While you're constantly doing it on stream after stream after stream after stream? Really?

Lav: This is horribly disgusting. I cannot even believe that you did that. If you want to have a conversation like this, you absolutely cannot talk about my fiance again and you absolutely cannot make up fucking lies about that.

Destiny: Why? You talk about my fiancee all the time, and I'm not lying. You literally have–you're talking about Melina all the time–

Lav: Your life is public.

Destiny: Okay, and guess what, yours is, too, if you want to be out here saying "My CMO boyfriend," if you want to be talking with Max, you're gonna be digging into my personal life constantly then your life is just as public as mine, of course.

Lav: I literally can't even believe that you would blatantly lie like that. Like, I'm genuinely–

Destiny: Do you want me to repeat what you said about him, and you can tell me if it's a lie or not?

Lav: Steven, what the fuck are you doing?

Destiny: Do you want me to repeat what you said about him, and then you can tell me if it's a lie or not, or. Why don't you guys just stop talking about me publicly, right? You've leaked every single little–

Lav: Or you will–you're threatening me.

Destiny: Oh, now I'm threatening you like the fake blackmail before? You've already leaked everything about our fucking personal relationship, do you understand that?

Lav: Steven, you just publicly threatened me. Steven, you just publicly threatened me with a fucking lie.

Destiny: Oh my god, it's the loop again. It's the loop again. It's the loop again. I didn't threaten you with a lie, it's the truth and you know it.

Lav: What the fuck are you talking about?

Destiny: You realize your entire existence online right now just revolves around threatening to out me as a Harvey Weinstein of Twitch right?

Lav: I have never threatened to out you. I'm not writing the fucking article. You're conflating what I am doing with Max.

Destiny: You're the star witness on the article, Lav, like 20% of it is gonna be about us.

Lav: I have not done–

Destiny: You're literally the person that dragged Ana to fucking Max and then mindfucked her for three hours and tried to get her to fucking leak all of our fucking logs to him.

Lav: First of all, first of all, Ana contacted me before I contacted her. And I did not drag her–

Zonia: Not about that. Not about that.

Destiny: Was it about connecting her to Max for the little article you guys are writing?

Lav: It was her saying that you were abusive, it was after you said shut up bitch, and she was like she was saying "I'm so sorry that Steven did that. That's part of–Steven has an abusive cycle."

Destiny: How did Anna get in contact with Max, Lav?

Lav: They had talked before.

Destiny: How did she get in contact with Max for the article?

Lav: Hold on. They had spoken before.

Destiny: That's not what I'm asking you, Lav, I'm asking you how did Ana get in contact with Max for the article.

Lav: Ana told me that you guys were still sexting, she was like, "God, he's so abusive–"

Destiny: This is your long way of saying you connected her up to max, right?

Lav: Yeah, and then I went to Max and I said, "Oh my god, Ana just told me that they are still sexting each other and never never stopped."

Destiny: Yep, and then you connected Ana to Max so she can be part of your guys's little hit piece on me.

[...]

Lav: Steven, every chance I have gotten online, to the detriment of myself, I have said I do not think what you have done is that bad, worth condemning, I wouldn't personally write an article on you. I literally went against–I don't know if you watched the whole fucking video that I did with Max, but I literally was like, "This is all my fault. I made a mountain out of a molehill. I don't know what to fucking do. I wish that none of this would have happened." And now you are acting like I am like the fucking–

Destiny: You literally don't believe any of that. You were giggling along with Mr. Girl while he was telling you that you didn't make a mountain out of a molehill. You're right to feel like you were abused and coerced. And that is the implication that you're–

Lav: It feels very good for someone to tell you that something is not your fault.

Destiny: Yeah, I'm sure it does, especially when it all is your fault, Lav, I'm sure it feels really good. When you imply over and over again that we had an active sexual relationship while you were blowing up on my stream, you've said it this stream–I'm glad at least you admit that that's not true, that that is horribly misrepresented–and then when you're out here talking shit about all these other streamers [...] and then you're sitting here acting like you're the indignant one. After you've leaked personal hookup details about me to fucking Big Tech that's leaking it publicly, when you've talked about it multiple times on stream–how do you think you have the fucking high road here? Like you've done nothing but betray my trust and the trust of every other person for nothing. And if I wasn't sexually abusive or coercive, it's even worse for you because you're leaking it all for attention. You're not even leaking it for good fucking reason.

Stardust: [...] It's understandable why Steven feels this way, because it's like, he didn't do one thing that he doesn't do for anybody. Right? And you took that and discounted every part of his friendship.

Lav: I'm having a conversation with Steven, okay? You do not need to run defense. I don't want this to be a conversation with a peanut gallery. If it's going to be me and Steven, it's going to be me and Steven.

[...]

Destiny: [...] I explicitly told you that nothing we do, or did, or will ever do sexually has anything with you coming on stream. You joked back at me about that, but I even reaffirmed it to make sure and you said that you appreciate it and you understood that, number one, and number two, you keep saying I wasn't taking care of you or checking on you–I explicitly DMed you to check in on you to see if you were okay, and you told me you were fine. And all of this is happening when we did not have a sexual relationship. How is it my fault for you mind fucking yourself on my stream?

Lav: Steven, I've already conceded publicly and said that that was my bad, that I should have managed my own emotions better. I've already said that.

Destiny: If I'm checking in on you and giving you clear boundaries, like hey, this doesn't have to be sexual blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, how is any of this coercive or abusive on my end?

Lav: Steven, I don't think that it's coercive or abusive. That is–that is Max.

Destiny: Then what am I–what have I done wrong to you?

Lav: I mean, I don't–if you really want to talk about it, then we can talk about it. Not publicly–

Destiny: I already talked to you privately and you wouldn't seriously reference anything. So I'm asking you–

Lav: No, when I told you about how I felt, you would try to debate me out of it.

Destiny: Because you were already working with a guy who was digging into every woman I've ever talked to trying to write a sexual assault piece on me.

[...]

Lav: First of all, I was suicidal during that time, but I don't attribute that all to you.

Destiny: Oh, yeah?

Lav: Yeah, Steven, I was coming off of a fucking benzodiazepine addiction. I was–

Destiny: Oh, that would be really–why don't you mention that next time instead of making it sound like I'm making you fucking kill yourself?

Lav: I've literally mentioned that so fucking often if you haven't seen it, you haven't seen it. I've mentioned that–

Destiny: I just watched you having three hours of your–you literally said the worst times in your life are when you got dropped into a fucking cult at 16, and then November when you were on my stream.

Lav: Yeah, November was really awful for me. I mean, one of your orbiters made a video–

Destiny: You didn't mention anything about benzodiazepines then, did you?

Lav: One of your videos, or two of your orbiters actually, made videos about me, because Low Tier God–

Destiny: Nice pivot away from what you just said, but okay.

Lav: Sorry, I'm a little jumbled because you talk fast. What was I…?

Destiny: On Max's stream, you said these were the two worst times in your life, you never mentioned a benzo overdose. Actually, I'm gonna be honest, I don't even know–

Zonia: Not overdose, detox.

Destiny: I don't even know if I knew you were ever detoxing from benzos. So that is not

something–

Lav: You knew that I was taking them because I took them when we were together.

Destiny: Yeah, sometimes you take a Xanax, that doesn't necessarily mean you're taking so many that you're abusing them.

Lav: I wasn't abusing them.

Zonia: Detoxing off of benzos can be rough, even if you're not using them.

Lav: I wasn't abusing them, I was taking like a normal amount. But if–

Destiny: Hold on, I'm sorry, I've never in my life heard somebody refer to weaning off a medication as detoxing unless they're abusing them, my bad.

Lav: No, if it's a benzo, detoxing is just getting off of it.

Tuna Chip: It's real in this instance, I mean, I work with addiction and people that are not using and that have to go through this procedure–some people straight up just don't even use benzos when they have a history of addiction, because the come down can be a trigger to try and use again. So yeah.

Zonia: I'm familiar with it because I have a close friend who's been trying to detox off of it.

Destiny: Sure, that's fine. It would be nice in the future maybe if you bring that up because I don't think I've ever heard you bring that up as a reason why you were suicidal. You literally explicitly blame my community for it.

Lav; Steven, Steven, Steven, you also have to understand that if I come out–I'm in a catch-22 where if I say "Well, I was detoxing off of benzos," anytime I bring you up your whole community's just gonna be like, "Another excuse as to why she was fucking crazy."

Destiny: Let's just blame it on me for making you suicidal, that's so much better, thanks Lav, true.

Lav: I don't think that I blamed fully on you but I think that you–

Destiny: You did, you did, you did. Oh my god.

Lav: Steven I've watched you ban emotes in your chat when you are losing favor with your audience. You can absolutely do a little bit of fucking cleanup with me. It is not too much to ask.

Destiny: I did do cleanup with you. Are you fucking serious? [...] What do you think partially inspired the entire fucking anti-misogyny arc?

Lav: I have logs when you said that that absolutely wasn't me. I have logs of you saying that.

Destiny: No it's not you specifically, but it's the hate that women were getting in my community and you were one of them. No shit, Sherlock.

Lav: You said this absolutely had nothing to do with me. I have a fucking log.

Destiny: That's fine that you have a log of it. That's fine you have a log of me saying that. Okay, but the reality is, is that when you were on my stream, I was also trying to clean up my subreddit with misogyny at the same fucking time.

[...]

Destiny: It's not funny when you're making jokes when you and mrgirl are literally blaming me the as like the Harvey Weinstein of Twitch and you're laughing about it. You have the most pretty girl syndrome of anyone I've ever met on the internet where nobody's ever held you accountable–

Lav: You said I was mid earlier, what's the truth?

Destiny: I said your pussy was mid, not you. Obviously you're decently attractive.

Lav: You know my pussy is top shelf. Another lie. Substantiate that claim.

They argued some more, and then Destiny left, satisfied that Lav had recanted her allegations.

Stardust told Lav that she'd betrayed Destiny's friendship by releasing their private DMs to me, and that I'd treated Lav worse than Destiny did.

A streamer named JebTan was added to the call.

JebTan: With the stream, was it yesterday or the day before? It's like you're part of this parade [Max is] doing and it seems like you get a lot of frustration and turmoil from not being wanting to be attached to max on this crusade. But he sort of brings you along with it. Does that make you feel any kind of way? Like is there any part of you that's like, I wish Max would not do that?

Lav: There are parts of me that are worried that Max is manipulating me.

JebTan: There are parts of me that worry the same thing, because–

Lav: I don't think that they're founded in anything. I don't think that he is–I don't think that actually he has done–I cannot pinpoint things that he has done. But just know that I'm hypercritical of everything he does, because I'm very aware of the fact that I fear this. I talk to him about it, we talk about it. He wants me to be open with how I feel about it. I worry about it. And I think about it a lot. And it could be true, but there are no things that stick out. He's overwhelmingly just been really positive and really held space for me to express how I feel about the situation. And sometimes how we feel about the situation isn't necessarily rooted in logic about the situation, right?

JebTan: Yeah, of course, like there's gonna be an emotional connection to the situation too. And especially, I think you've been really open in this conversation about some of the things that can make it hard to make good decisions relating to the Steven stuff. But I think Max is one of those things that makes it really hard for you to make good decisions about the Steven stuff. And that's what concerns me.

Lav: We also–I also made the decision that me and Max would not have a dual relationship anymore, so we are not going to stream together. At least until this Destiny stuff is like completely–

Beckett: When did you make that decision?

JebTan: That's big.

Tuna Chip: You're not streaming with Max until Max [...] either releases the document–

Lav: No, until it's [...] no longer a hot topic that people are reacting to. We're not going to talk about Steven again–

Tuna Chip: [...] If you talk about it, even when it dies down, wouldn't that be able to be seen as like, bringing it out of retirement and then bringing it back into the light?

Lav: Well, I might talk about it afterwards, but I'm saying me and Max will not have a dual relationship. So [...] we're just not gonna stream together. I don't want a dual relationship with Max right now.

[...]

JebTan: Here's my thing as someone, again, who's friendly to you. I would say you–it's clear that ideally what you want is you want to quit your OnlyFans, you want to be able to find a new job, you want to enjoy your move, enjoy your relationship and move and all that and be done with all this. I think if I want to–if I would give you the next steps for that, I would honestly say you should talk to Steven, you should say "I want to make a statement absolving you of what I think you should be absolved of. And here's what it is."

Lav: Well, I will do that after the article.

JebTan: But what I'm saying is, [...] also leaving open to him, saying, "I'm not gonna say in the statement that I think Max is lying, or he's on a crazy crusade, I'm just gonna absolve you of what I know of how you behave toward me, what isn't true. And then I want to be done with this. You don't have to go on his stream to do it. But just let him know you're doing it, and then do it. I would do it before the article because it has nothing to do with the article, because it's just your experience. And you don't have to throw Max under the bus, you don't have to fully say Destiny's a good guy to everybody else. Just absolve him of what you know not to be true.

Lav: What I know not to be true–what do you mean.

JebTan: Like, what if you truly said–that's why I asked you–if you truly said you think he tried his best to be friendly toward you? And that's all you can honestly say

Lav: I don't know if he tried his best. Like I said, if I was in his position, I would have done a lot more.

JebTan: Yeah, because you're you.

Beckett: [...] I don't know Destiny. I don't know his content. But I do know content creators who've been around a long time. A couple of people have said that Destiny is one of the few people who really tries to build people up when he doesn't need to. And that does seem to be legitimately true. [...] You and Max are not the first people to end up in situations where you end up doing stuff like this or getting this kind of heat from the community yada yada yada. So the question is, did Steven do, like, the best? It fucking appears so, from an outsider's point of view, as someone who's watched a lot of a lot of big content creators from multiple communities. [...] If this wasn't Twitchpol, if we were talking about commentary, or we were talking about like the fucking old [...] anti-SJW or atheist communities, the content creators from there are fucking brutal in comparison to the shit that Destiny does. I think he's been massively charitable. I also think that other people have been pretty charitable in a lot of ways. I think, [ChudLogic] is very content brained, and that's fine, but he's been surprisingly charitable. I think people have been more than you realize.

Lav: Wait, what?

JebTan: I think compared to how hard Chud goes on people for that content, because like multiple people will–

Lav: You're fucking ridiculous if you think that Chud has been anything but extremely abusive to me, genuinely.

[...]

JebTan: It's got to be more than just another thing that was said on a stream. That was my thing–

Lav: But also, wait, hold on. I also don't know. I know that you guys want Steven to be absolved of one thing, you want Steven to be the good guy in this situation. But I don't know. I don't know. I know that I'm not severely traumatized. I also know I don't know where my anger should be placed.

JebTan: Lav, I don't give a fuck about Destiny. I just want you to absolve him of what you know to not be true. [...] Because I asked you, "[Are] there things that you honestly think he could be absolved of?" Do you think–and before you were saying, "Yeah–"

[...]

Lav: Okay, I don't know, and I still need to gather my thoughts about it. I haven't healed yet. Obviously me and Steven haven't talked yet–for months. I don't know what the fuck is going on. And all of it is unfolding in real time in front of us. And I don't know what the fuck is going on. I still have other shit to deal with. There is no way that I'm making another public statement just for it to be rash and uninformed without my full feelings.

JebTan: Yeah, I'm not saying do it tomorrow, and I'm not saying–

Lav: I have a feeling the article is gonna come out in the next one or two weeks.

Zonia: So that's great, but here's the thing. I think that's actually a great statement that you made right there that you don't want to make any more statements that are rash. I think that's great. Stick with that policy, that's awesome. But at the same time, you also have to know that if you're hanging out with Max and Max is, you know, talking all these things and making these allegations about Steven, you're kind of, you know, complicit there, at least from everybody else's perspective in those allegations. So you kind of have to state for the record, be like, "Okay, Max, just for the record, I don't agree with what Max is saying here, or–"

Lav: I won't say that I don't agree with it, but I might say, again, publicly–

Zonia: Or that it's not your position.

Lav: Wait, from the very beginning I have said that I'm not helping max with this fucking article, [...] literally from the beginning, I have said that Max is not me.

Zonia: Yeah, you're gonna have to be more explicit than that. You're gonna have to say, "I'm sorry, guys, this is not my position that Max is stating here. I'm not sure where I stand on these things. You just kind of have to be explicit about it, otherwise people are going to think you're complicit."

Lav: Maybe I'll go over it on stream.

Beckett: If I said, "I've got nothing against Zonia, whoever's attacking Zonia, I have nothing against them, but I have given them all my chat logs." And every stream I've ever done with Zonia, people would read that same way. Even if I was claiming neutrality.

Lav: If one of you was doing background on Max, and you asked for all of my logs with Max and you wanted to try to like, I don't know, paint Max as an abuser–[...] not paint him as an abuser. But if you're trying to find out if he was an abuser, I would give you all of my–

Tuna Chip: Would you?

Becket: Well, actually, that's an interesting statement then, like genuinely. If this comes out, and [...] people think it's full of shit, like the stuff gets disapproved or whatever Max's got gets contextualized, if it needs it, can people ask for those logs? Is that a commitment–

Lav: I will readily give them.

Tuna Chip: Lav, I gotta know, I gotta know, what would it take in that hypothetical? [...] It's Max, you've given them–what would it take for you then to say to that person, "Hey, I'm redacting my logs. You can't use them." What would you need to know out of the intent of that other person? [...] Is there anything that, where you feel like once you've given it, that you can say don't use that, you're not allowed to use that anymore? I gave that thinking it was for this, but now it seems like it's for this.

Lav: If was trying to deplatform Max, or if someone was trying to aid in harassment to Max. Or trying to hurt his family, or–

Tuna Chip: Do you think that the article that mrgirl is making is has no intent towards deplatforming of Destiny?

Beckett: Or hurting his family?

Lav: If it says anything about his family, like his son, I–

Tuna Chip: No, no, no, it's not that it would say something. It's not like it's doxing the location of his his ex and child, when I'm saying as we know–you know–how uncontrollable, frenetic, and terrible these massive communities on the internet are. They have gone after you. So, if you know–

Lav: If one of you loved him, if [Stardust], who had a personal relationship with Max, was making something about how she thought that he was potentially abusive and wanted like proof or wanted more stories or more information, I would absolutely give Star all of the logs.

Tuna Chip: Based on the love, based on the idea that you think they have that genuine care.

Lav: Yes.

Tuna Chip: But do you know for a fact that that love–what if that love, if you had some inkling of suspicion, that that love is gone? And now instead there is a bitter resentment from–in the shadow of an eclipsed love.

Lav: If I thought that that was the place that Max was coming from, I absolutely would not give him the logs. I would not give him Steven's logs.

Tuna Chip: You would redact the logs–would you redact the logs after having given them?

Lav: Yes, if [...] at any point I thought that that is the reality of the situation, I would say no, I do not want to be mentioned in this article.

JebTan: But Lav, [...] if you loved somebody and you thought they could be doing something self-destructive and destructive to the people around them, do you think you would make an article about it, or do you think you'd talk to them about it, and bring all that same evidence just to them, and not announce a giant article slam piece on him?

Lav: Well, the problem is that Steven doesn't have a great track record of taking hard feedback on stream.

JebTan: I'm just asking what you would do–

Beckett: As a bisexual man, this conversation is making me feel gay. So I'm gonna go–

Zonia: You can give him plenty of feedback on stream, it just depends on how you deliver it.

Lav: [...] So if you even bring up the Ana situation, or how he acted in the situation, I mean, there was a post with thousands of up votes on me when we were just talking about audience hate and what you can do to mitigate it, and I was like, "Well, the Ana thing happened and he was an everyone fucking freaked out.

Zonia: That makes sense. But that makes sense. [...] That's a situation that's very sensitive, and you gotta talk about it with him in private. You can't talk about it in public.

JebTan: I'm asking what you would do–

Lav: That's ridiculous, the whole thing fucking happened in public. I don't know why you couldn't talk about it in public.

Zonia: It doesn't matter. It's a very, very sensitive situation. It has a long history to it. You know some of the things that have flared up in public. It's one of the things you just cannot talk about in public. It's one of the things you have to talk to him about in private, otherwise, he's just going to shut you down, and for a really good reason, and I would shut you down too if you did.

[...]

JebTan: [...] I don't give a fuck about Steven, I don't care if you make a statement about Steven if you truly don't believe he deserves absolution for anything. My goal for you, my goal in this situation in general, is I just want you to ride off into the sunset in insert name of state you moved to with insert name of fiance with insert job, and get the fuck out of all of this. Okay? Because that's what I think you want deep down, but sometimes you just let them–you let shit pull you back in whether it's on the Destiny side or the Max side. I just want you out of it. I want you happy and out of it.

Lav: Do you think I can exist online without fucking everyone trying to–

JebTan: No. I don't think you should exist online. I think riding off into the sunset includes shutting the laptop, closing the computer. The only place you need to exist online is fucking Battlenet with your boys and your girls.

(He is referring to Lav's love of the video game Overwatch.)

Shaelin and I listened to this conversation live with our friends, who were refreshingly horrified by how Destiny and his orbiters handle abuse allegations.

I asked Shaelin, "Do you want to get in there?"

She said, "I don't know."

A few minutes later, I looked over at her and saw her shaking with rage. She decided to call in to the stream.

[...]

Tuna Chip: I have literally no confidence that Lav has a best option that is also healthy. I think that there's a big fucking sign hanging here which is, once a woman is in the [crosshairs], you're fucked. You're gonna be hunted for the rest of your life. [...]

Zonia: I can think of plenty of examples of people who've moved on–

Shaelin: Why are you contributing to that, then? Why are you putting Lav on trial if you think that there is an atmosphere here in which women speaking out about things puts them in the crosshairs?

JebTan: I don't think it's putting someone on trial to discuss with them some things as long as you're well meaning and you're not reaming them over it and you're having their best interest [inaudible] I don't think it's putting them on trial.

Shaelin: I don't think you have her best interest at heart, but why don't you guys go ahead and explain to me why you guys are in a four, five person call against Lav about why you think that she's fucking up here. Someone please explain to me.

JebTan: Sure, I can explain, I jumped on because I'm not against her, because I very specifically just said I just want her to ride off into the sunset and be happy with her fiance in the place she just moved and enjoy her life, and it seems like the internet is doing nothing but robbing her of that ability. That makes me really sad. As someone who barely even knows her it makes me really sad. That's why.

Lav: Well I think, Jeb, you are the most well meaning person here. I can't say that for everyone.

JebTan: I don't know Zonia to–I don't know anybody else–

Shaelin: Zonia just fucking released a video suggesting that Lav murdered her cat. Don't fucking talk about how Zonia's good faith, that's the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. That's ridiculous.

Zonia: Lav, do you think I'm good faith?

Lav: No.

Shaelin: Don't fucking ask Lav. What the fuck is your problem, Zonia? Absolutely not.

Zonia: Lav, I thought–okay, so I guess we didn't actually patch things up, nevermind. All right, well, whatever.

Lav: Wait, no–we are on friendly terms. But no, that does not rewrite the fact that for 30 minutes earlier today you said that you are going to milk me because I was a lolcow and I was mentally ill. You were horrible.

(Lav is referencing the language of KiwiFarms, the harassment-focused forum where users refer to their sadistic pleasure as "milk," and their targets as "lolcows.")

Zonia: We talked about that. Right? We were both horrible to each other. We were–I was kind of matching your energy.

Lav: Sure–I also–no, you were not matching my energy. [...] I was rude, but no, I do not think that you're good faith. I think that you're doing what you're doing. I don't know your intentions right now. I don't know your intentions right now. I know that you're making content from this and I know that you have continued to make content off of me and I know that you earlier said that I was a lolcow and you were just going to keep milking me for views and whatever the fuck that you could. [...]

Zonia: That's fair. I mean, I don't really have an issue, so I'm not sure why Shaelin is bringing me up in this, but whatever.

Shaelin: The issue is that you guys are in a 4 and 5v1 call, trying to tell Lav that she has fucked up somehow by bringing up her concerns about how she was treated, and suggesting things like, oh, maybe you should just get off the internet. Oh, maybe you should just take everything back. Oh, maybe you should just dissociate yourself from Max because he probably has bad intentionss, so blah, blah, blah. But like, the only thing Lav has done is talk about her experience. And she did talk about her experience to Destiny himself very publicly, and has been pretty consistent that it has been hurting her. And yet here you all are fucking trying to shit on her, even though [...] you're trying to bring up the article, which hasn't come out. It's total bullshit. You guys are all fucking insane.

Stardust: I don't think that the majority of us have been in here telling her how she's fucked up, right? If anything, I've been trying to say hey, here's where the breakdown of this relationship happened, this is why Steven feels the way that he does, et cetera, et cetera. [...] I don't think it's very fair for you to be claiming that all of us are shitting on Lav when [...] you know, I have expressed empathy towards her earlier in this call, we have bonded over certain things earlier in this call.

Shaelin: Yeah, just because Lav–

Stardust: You can shut the fuck up, bitch! Holy shit, you are such a fucking loud obnoxious bitch! Holy shit! We were civil before you came to the call screaming your lungs out you dumb fucking cunt!

[...]

Shaelin: [...] You are so threatened by the fact that people are coming forward and saying they're uncomfortable with a situation that you benefit from, that you're willing to gaslight them for hours.

Stardust: I'm not gaslighting anybody! I'm not gaslighting anybody! I've been empathetic towards Lav the entire fucking call.

Zonia: Shaelin, you're an obsessed fucking pathetic piece of shit who makes ridiculous retarded artwork. Go make some more artwork about all of us. Have fun just jerking yourself off to the idea of us being part of a cult. [...]

Shaelin: You're welcome to kick me. But if you want to actually address the concerns, telling me that you're doing something is not the same as doing it. What I have heard is that Lav brought up a potential abuse claim and you guys said that she has to feel a certain way about potential

Stardust: Nobody said she has to feel any sort of way, what are you talking about?

Shaelin: [...] You said that she needs to be very clear before bringing anything up. And I don't think that's true. Literally every person who's been in an abusive situation has mixed feelings about it. The fact that you are all on here trying to tell her that she should have thought about it more, or that she's like–you're just gaslighting her! She has feelings about what happened and she's expressed it over and over.

Zonia: So who gaslit her about what?

JebTan: Shaelin, can I respond real quick? Just for me–I gain nothing from Destiny. I don't stream, never been on his stream. Don't care to grow a stream. I only came on here because I've had conversations with Lav. I've not shit on her one time, I have only given her good faith advice. And the only thing I've ever said as far as her experience and how she should handle it is that she should absolve Steven of things, after asking her if she thinks he did his best, and she responded initially that he might have. And I said, if that is the case, she should make public whatever she thinks is true about the situation so that she can detach and so that she can again, like I said, ride off into the sunset and be her own person. Because yes, I did tell her she should detach from the Max thing, because I think you'd agree it is not [Lav's] article. It's Max's article. She shouldn't have to be attached to it if she's given her statement just like anybody else. Max has that statement.

Lav: I've already publicly said that. [...]

Shaelin: The only reason why you think she's attached to it is because you all are obsessively berating her for talking to Max.

Stardust: Who is berating who in this call except for you?

Lav: [...] To be fair, you guys have literally been telling me that I've been doing something wrong and how to remedy that for hours now.

Stardust: I've not told you that you've done anything wrong. Wait a minute, I've empathized with you, I said being a woman in this space is fucking rough. [...] We both talked about how certain parts of this experience is clearly misogyny, and if I have some criticisms on top of that, that doesn't mean that I'm berating you for hours, right? That means that I've empathized with you on specific very specific points, and I maybe have offered a couple of places of contention here or there, right?

Shaelin: Understand that you have this–

Stardust: Eat my dick, Shaelin, I don't fucking give a shit what you have to say! Dumb fucking cunt!

Shaelin: [...] If Lav is gonna speak out because she's fucking uncomfortable, then you coming at her for bringing it up is fucking bullshit.

[...]

Zonia: Shaelin, you're shadowboxing here. You're talking about shit that hasn't been happening. We've been trying to be cordial, this time. We're just talking to you–

Shaelin: I don't care if you're pretending to be cordial–

Zonia: All right, so you don't want to cooperate, you just want to talk over people and shadowbox with people that aren't here. I don't give a fuck what your delusional mind comes up with in terms of what's happening here, but it ain't actually happening here. So stop sperging out on this fucking call. All right, either act normal or get the fuck off, one or the other.

Shaelin: Yeah, I understand that when someone brings up a concern about your behavior or someone that you want to defend, i.e. Destiny's behavior–

Zonia: Okay, you're shadowboxing, you're shadowboxing again.

Stardust: You still have not named who came at her, and you can shut the fuck up, why don't you go be quiet with the sex doll. How about that? Go sit down next to the sex doll, Shaelin. Go sit down next to the sex doll.

Zonia: The sex doll has better chances than her, unfortunately.

(They are referring to "The mrgirl RealDoll Review," a provocative documentary I made about a sex doll sent to me by RealDoll and its impact on my relationship with Shaelin.)

[...]

Stardust: I've never said that you have to do anything in particular with Max or with Destiny. All I've done is offer the ways that, you know, people feel betrayed in this.

Shaelin: Have you been defending Lav's position as much as you're defending Destiny's? I know everyone wants to talk about how Destiny might be feeling in this situation, but have all of you been giving the same amount of time and energy to think about–

Stardust: I have offered my sympathies–

(Destiny had been added to the call without Shaelin's knowledge.)

Destiny: Wait, wait, wait, why would you assume that Lav's position deserves as much defense as mine when Lav has consistently lied–

Shaelin: Oh, no, no, no, I'm not gonna talk to you.

Destiny: Are you gonna get in trouble?

Shaelin: No, I just think you're an abusive piece of shit and I'm not interested in talking to you at all.

Destiny: Oh, okay, coming from a person that lives with her employer? Okay, dude.

Shaelin: Anyway, I'm not gonna continue this conversation if Destiny's in here–

Destiny: Bye! Goodnight!

Zonia: Oh, you're gonna run away? Really, you're gonna run away?

Destiny: Tell Max I say hi, I'm glad that he sent you in here to do damage control.

Shaelin: Yeah, you're all fucking psycho and abusive.

Zonia: Oh my gosh, the person who made that fucking piece of artwork, wonderful.

Stardust: Go hang out with the sex doll, Shaelin.

Zonia: I'm sure that you words ring so fucking true. Those are some powerful words from the person who obsessed over all the orbiters and drew this ridiculous piece of art about them.

Shaelin released this drawing on December 19, 2022:

Destiny: You guys remember when Max said that he was gonna keep Shaelin away from all the internet stuff until he needed to wheel her out to defend her for this shitty article? Wasn't that a funny fucking meme?

(Destiny is referring to how he once tried to interview Shaelin about our relationship on stream after suggesting, without evidence, that I do not allow her to have a phone. I told him I would ask her to say no, partly because I wanted to protect her. In November 2022 she did a wide-ranging interview with ChudLogic in which she called Destiny "abusive" and a "douchebag.")

Shaelin: Lav, they are now in a five v one call with you. If I leave–

Zonia: How are you still on the call, you psychotic piece of shit?

Destiny: Because she has to pull Lav out, because mrgirl is telling her that she needs to make Lav leave. [inaudible]

Stardust: [...] When Lav was talking about her experiences in this space, I was still very sympathetic towards her. I still empathized with her. Even if I disagreed with some of the things that her and I–our interactions that we've had previously. So this entire thing that Shaelin came in with is the worst faith, lunatic, the most lunatic shit I've ever heard, and I don't blame Max, I really don't, that he wants a silent sex doll. Okay, I really don't blame him because I would want–

Lav: This like, violent misogyny, what the fuck is wrong with you, Star?

[....]

Shaelin: I'm gonna go to bed now. You're all insane. [...] I love you, Lav, and we'll talk later.

Lav: I love you, too. All right, talk later.

Zonia: Get fucked.

Lav: What the fuck is wrong with you guys?

Zonia: What the fuck is wrong with her? How can you agree with that craziness?

[...]

Lav: The way that Star and Zonia, the just vitriolic misogynistic abuse was so fucking disgusting I genuinely can't even believe it. The way that you guys think that language is permissible to speak to another human is fucking insane.

Destiny: You do realize that Shaelin literally drew them as dogs of mine, right? [...] Do you think that's a little bit misogynistic or vitriolic?

[...]

Destiny: How about you send all of your logs with him to me then, if you're on a neutral side here? You said all of our logs to him, which by the way included a ton of personal information that I see you don't give a fuck about. [...]

Lav: I have literally nothing to hide, I'll send them to you.

(After the call, Destiny tweeted out a screenshot of his DMs with Lav:

Lav: If you promise not to abuse me with these or paint me poorly or direct hate i will send you the logs but im scared

Destiny: Ya I promise but I'm not holding my breath

Six hours later, Destiny wrote "lol," but Lav had blocked him.)

Link | Archive

Destiny and JebTan argued that my investigation was being conducted unethically and for unethical reasons, while Lav insisted she was not part of it and could not answer for my actions.

In one of his arguments, he said, "You're taking right now to try to explain actions in the past, which, unless you're a fucking time traveler, if that's a power that Jewish people have, I was not aware of that, I'm sorry but I don't think you could do that."

Destiny accused Lav of helping me manipulate Ana into releasing a screenshot of their sexting.

Lav told Destiny that she's felt conflicted about even being part of my report in the first place, and that she's done her best to be charitable to him.

Lav: You have repeatedly called me mentally ill–

Destiny: You are.

Lav: [...] Oh, you just had no fucking clue? Until afterwards, until after I came out? That's so convenient. You had no fucking clue that I was mentally ill that I was too–

Destiny: I didn't know you were this mentally ill, no, I didn't. What had you ever done that had shown this level of mental illness?

Lav: That's extremeley convenient. That is completely convenient that you would just not know until after the fact until it's convenient for you to use that against me, that [...] I was completely healthy while you were [...] trying to fuck me, [...] I was completely good [...].

JebTan: Lav, let's focus, one sec, redirect–Lav, what do you want? You keep saying you don't want to be fucking associated with this, you want out.

Lav: What I want–dude I want Steven to stop fucking–

JebTan: I got it. Lav, just please let me get–

Destiny: If you want me to stop doing it then stop talking about me, that's so easy. Don't do a five hour stream where you throw me under the bus for three hours.

Lav: Yeah, just stop talking about how I feel if I don't want abuse, yeah, that makes sense. Just stop talking about how I feel if [I] don't want insane retaliation from you [...].

[...]

Lav: Steven, [...] this week is the first time I've publicly talked about you for fucking months. What the fuck are you talking about?

Destiny: Lav, would you bet your husband's life–how much money would you bet on that? That you haven't publicly talked about me in some area where at least five people can hear? In the past month, how much money would you put on that, Lav.

Lav: In a way that would get back to you, Steven? I have not publicly gone on stream or tweeted about it or any of that fucking shit. What I do in my own Discord–

Destiny: Clearly it's getting back to me, and if it's getting back to me, who the fuck knows who else it's getting back to? That's kind of the whole fucking point, Lav.

[...]

Destiny: [...] Talk to your fucking therapist or talk to your friends offline. You don't need to be in a public Rumble Stream with Max typing up his new article talking about your feelings. It's like the most inappropriate place to do it.

Lav: But you can say that I had mid pussy and you can call me a fucking narcissistic abuser like my mother? Steven you're a fucking joke. You're a hypocritical fucking joke.

[...]

Destiny: Pretty sure you were like, "Oh, he was so sad that I fucking left," as you're fucking divulging information about my fucking dick and our fucking hookup, to fucking Big Tech of all people. And now you want to high road me? Because I included a little quip about mid pussy, Lav? That's the road you want to go down? I still haven't leaked the full details of our hookup, by the way, if you want me to I can.

Lav: Why would–it feels like you're threatening me–

Destiny: "Why would, uh uh uh." 'Cause you leaked everything that makes you look good.

Destiny and Lav argued about the accuracy of her DMs to Big Tech about their sexual encounter.

Destiny: You said I was sad, you said you didn't touch me.

Lav: You seemed upset that I did not fucking return the favor, Steven.

Destiny: I didn't seem upset. I didn't feel upset. You know what I was. I was tired. Like I was all fucking night, like I was when I was almost asleep in your fucking car, when you had us go when so if you get a Red Bull, [...] I almost fell asleep before we even did anything.

Destiny then relitigated the timeline of events, now acknowledging the gap between their last sexual DMs and Lav getting dogpiled was only "a few weeks." He claimed that because Lav and her fiance closed the door on their open relationship in November, Lav couldn't have felt pressured to be sexual with him. Lav interjected that her relationship with her fiance became monogamous at the end of November, which would have been after all of the dogpiling.

Destiny said that Lav claimed he'd only steelmanned her position in a debate because she sent him a nude–Lav replied that she'd never said that.

Destiny: Do you understand how much of my community made fun of me for calling you intelligent and for defending your positions when you weren't there? How could they have simultaneously been doing that if I was just trashing you the whole time?

Zonia: He's got a point, I remember that very well.

Destiny: Ah, god, the DARVO. The DARVO in real time.

Lav: Steven, what the fuck are you saying? I'm DARVOing you.

Destiny: You just DARVOed me. It was a good DARVO.

Lav: Can you be normal? Can you be fucking normal?

Destiny: Lav, nothing about this situation is normal.

Lav: You're accusing me of abusing you right now. You're saying that I'm using DARVO.

Destiny: You are abusive. Of course you're abusing me. You leveraged a fucking sexual relationship to hop on my stream, leaked details about it to make me look bad, and then tried to turn it around later on to pretend like I was abusing you, what do you mean, of course.

Lav: You are–I actually, like I genuinely thought that I'd made everything up and this conversation puts me right back in it.

Destiny: You just did a shit talk session on me for three hours four days ago. What do you mean you thought everything was made up?

Lav: Today I woke up and I was like, fuck, I like really–

Destiny: Wanted to DARVO Steven today.

Lav: I was like, no, I've really made a mountain out of a molehill, and you are literally actively accusing me of abuse in real time. You are putting words in my mouth. You have called me names today. You've been extremely misogynistic to me, publicly, live for your thousands of live viewers to hear–

Destiny: Tens of thousands, sometimes.

Lav: And you think that I am the person doing something wrong by saying I'm uncomfortable with the way that you treated me? This is a fucking joke, Steven. Get it together.

Lav left the call.

Destiny: Wait, you're uncomfortable now? Oh, yes, did she leave? I thought she said earlier that she wasn't uncomfortable, that she didn't have a single problem that she could point out with anything that happened. I thought I remembered her saying that.

Zonia: So, I think you got her on the backfoot there, it kind of seemed like she realized that her story didn't really–

Destiny: Max is spamming her probably, and Shaelin is probably spamming her with DMs at the same time, too.

JebTan: Shaelin's probably spammed her since she left, to be honest, but I mean the terms haven't changed. Obviously both people, both of you said fucking shitty shit to each other, but the terms have been the same the whole time which is–

Destiny: No, hold on. I'm only saying stuff out of retaliation to her. I don't really pick fights like this with people 'cause I don't drag personal relationships that I have through the mud. I don't know if I've ever done this ever, unprovoked in my entire streaming career. Maybe I have once or twice in like 2013, cuz I was an asshole, probably.

JebTan: No, I mean I agree, I agree–

Destiny: I just want to be clear because there's a lot of people being like, "Oh, you both have done shit" or whatever. Bullshit [inaudible]. She said crazy shit about me. I usually leave it alone until they start talking about me.

JebTan: Yeah.

Destiny: And she posts on the subreddit incessantly about me. She talks to mrgirl incessantly about me. And she's talking in so many–I don't know if you guys know. I know there are some people in my chat that know and I know I've got other strangers who reach out to me. Bro, one of the reasons why I knew she was leaking personal details about me is because a total fucking stranger emailed me one day, and he sent me like fifteen pages of DMs where she's just spilling her fucking guts to this random fucking dude who's like, "I don't know who I am. I'm nobody special. But Lav was like talking to me about all this shit." [She] started giving [him] all this personal info about me, like what the fuck?

JebTan: [...] The thing is, I know you said it only in retaliation, but you've been through the couples counseling bullshit and like interpersonal relationship stuff, and it's always gonna be like, she's always just gonna hear the fucking mid [Jewish pussy] shit and yeah, she said dumb shit to you, she said–not dumb shit, dangerous shit. Accused you of being Weinstein, all this shit. And it was shitty and she did it first. and that fucking sucks, but I mean, for her, that's never going to be–it's always gonna be the case that you did shitty shit, too, and you need to take accountability, and I can see why you wouldn't want to–I wouldn't want to. But I mean, yeah, she just has to stop talking about you so you can stop talking about her, or vice versa. It's the only way–

Destiny: Yeah, I'm totally cool with that. Yeah, if she stopped talking to me, I'd stop talking about her. I have no reason to, yeah.

JebTan: And I'm sure she knows, and I'll follow up. Because, I mean, that's what we've been saying this whole time. But then Shaelin came in and just trying to reel her back because full detachment isn't running her toward Max, and so Shaelin tried to come in and sort of pull the lifeline again, and I think it worked honestly.

Destiny: Yeah, because anytime Lav is like, using her brain even a little bit, fucking Shaelin has the dig her fucking claws back in with Max as the puppet master behind her like sending her out to reel her back in. Because Max knows it would look horrible if he stepped in the call. That's why he's wheeled out Shaelin as his fucking defense crew, despite saying that he would never bring her out publicly, that he wanted to explicitly keep her away from online content until he wheeled her out for that ChudLogic interview to defend every single point he's ever made verbatim.

JebTan: Seems like every step of the way she's getting pulled in by one person, and I get it, but–

Stardust: You know, I really think that quite a few of us were really trying to be genuine and trying to engage in good faith with her, and it's just unfortunate to see things end up this way, so.

JebTan: [...] I don't give a fuck about it, but I really just want her fucking out of this shit cuz the whole situation could be diffused and Max's dumb shit article can fucking get released into the nothingness void because it's bullshit, but it's just like–her being caught in between triggers half the drama.

Zonia: I've been trying to be charitable with her tonight after our blow up and everything–but the thing is, she will get involved in this stuff. She likes talking. She likes talking about things. She likes talking about people. And she likes doing it on streams and doing it in public communities or with other people who will also go onto streams and talk about this stuff, and among gossip networks and stuff. So there's not really a way for this–I don't foresee a way for this to stop.

Destiny: The issue is that right now, you've got unconditional insane validation and affirmation coming from mrgirl and Shaelin, because they need to, because Lav's anchor is tied to their boat, and there's no way they can separate from that. And then on Lav's perspective, every other person in the community is constantly shitting on her and hating her. So I understand her position, she's in a tough spot. Why the fuck would she abandon two people that are showing her a lot of kindness, caring and compassion and empathy and listening to everything she has to say, and then trade them in for a community of people that seem to be like ravenous sharks that fucking hate her. She's in a really rough spot. I would drop anything. Like I said, I'm not joking when I say it's fun talking to her because she is fucking smart, and she does gaslight the fuck out of people, that's really entertaining to me. I enjoy the conversation. I wouldn't talk shit about her publicly. I don't even care if she talks about me privately. She's like, "I fucking hate Destiny. I hate his fucking political positions and his stupid fucking blue hair. And he's–whatever the fuck," that's fine. But just, when you're out here saying shit like, "Oh yeah, privately, he talks about how he likes to abuse his fucking ex, and he's so fucking abusive and Harvey Weinsten," then it's like a different thing. If somebody wants to talk shit about me that's fine, but when the crazy abuse shit starts it's insane. But yeah, I don't know what her move is–she can never get away from Max and Shaelin because every fucking community online is completely and totally deadset against her.

March 12, 2023: On a stream, Paralakz, Tom Foolery Show, and Zonia were talking to Lav about whether she'd misrepresented Destiny's sexting relationship with Madame Genevieve by publicly outing it as "a sexual relationship" (although she also clarified that they'd only sexted).

Lav: If you were in a sexual relationship, and you sexted with someone without your spouse's knowledge, or without your whatever's knowledge, why would they be upset?

Destiny had joined the call without Lav's knowledge.

Destiny: Because it's cheating though, not because it's a sexual relationship.

Lav: Yes. And what's cheating about it? The fact that it's a sexual relationship, correct?

Destiny: If you were to tell somebody that you had a sexual relationship with somebody that you were long distance dating for a year–

Lav: I'm not going to speak to you.

Destiny [laughing]: Okay, I'm just saying nobody would consider that a sexual relationship.

Zonia: Oh, come on. Why don't we try to–let's keep it all civil.

Paralakz: It's not a sexual relationship, that's the whole point. And also it was not your information to share.

Destiny: I don't think–on the regards to hypocrisy thing, I don't think it has to do with any allegations or anything like that. I think the reason why people search for hypocrisy is because people are trying to figure out if a complaint that somebody is making feels authentic, so for instance, like if my mom were really mad–

Lav: Steven, I don't want to talk to you.

Destiny: You don't have to talk to me, I'm talking to the rest of the panel then, fuck you.

Lav: Okay bye.

She left.

Destiny:[...] Yeah, fucking got her. Okay, I really just wanted to bully her off of this, that's why I'm in here.

March 16, 2023: Among others, Lav, Kelly Jean, and Erudite appeared on a panel about sexual assault hosted by WhickTV titled "Setting Boundaries."

Destiny joined 30 minutes later, and Lav left almost immediately. Destiny laughed.

Destiny's audience celebrated in the chat:

DESTINY KEEP BULLYING HER

GO BACK TO DADDY MAX BITCH

SHE SCARED

THE BITCH IS GONE

MAKE SURE TO JOIN EVERY PANEL WITH HER AND BULLY HER OUT OF THESE SPACES

Me, and Destiny's Platforming of Nick Fuentes

My sixth-grade teacher had us do a family tree assignment as homework. Other than my family calling me "the brown boy" growing up, this was the first time I'd ever thought about my ethnicity.

I took down my father's oral history of his side of the family. He told me, "In Vilna, Poland, your great great grandfather wrote one of the first Hebrew encyclopedias." I jotted it down, thinking it sounded like a noteworthy accomplishment. "When he was in his seventies, the Nazis tied him to the back of a truck and dragged him through the streets until he was dead." Then a few people escaped on a boat and, in my father's words, "everyone else died."

When my great grandfather immigrated to the US, he kissed the ground at Ellis Island and changed his name to Abraham Lincoln Liberty. My grandmother's family, thinking that was a bit weird, adopted the more Jewish-sounding "Libert." My brother's middle name is Liberty.

There is a brand of Holocaust remembrance that says the Nazis were a singular evil. Antisemitism is a vile sickness that must be contained and extinguished. Israel is the motherland of all Jews and has an inalienable right to exist.

I was taught the other brand. The Nazis were normal everyday people. Banning antisemitism only increases the conspiratorial thinking of people who hate Jews. And Israel is an ethnostate where Jews have more rights than non-Jews.

Jews taught the first brand of Holocaust remembrance–proud Jews–picture themselves being chased, hiding in attics and cellars, and being herded into gas chambers.

Growing up, I pictured myself hunting Jews. Shooting them and watching them fall into a mass grave, burning their bodies, prying gold from extracted teeth.

To call a Nazi evil is Holocaust denial. To dehumanize Nazis is Nazism itself. And doing so gives people the ludicrous, impossible idea that somehow we know when we are wrong. The Nazis did not know they were Nazis.

"Never forget," to me, always meant "never forget to look in the mirror."

In January 2022, when I did my first livestream on Twitch, I averaged around 500 concurrent viewers, and over the months this number gradually increased. I was used to being the weirdo who was being "platformed" by someone else, and I suddenly found myself wielding a decently-sized spotlight of my own.

Lauren Southern asked me to play Call of Duty, and I readily agreed. I knew she was controversial, but so was I–my controversial 2020 review of the movie "Cuties" had made thousands of people think I was a pedophile. People called her a Nazi, they called me a pedophile–fuck political polarization, let's play some video games.

Then I learned that, in 2017, she'd protested on a raft in an attempt to block a rescue ship from leaving port in Sicily and "filling up with illegal immigrants." Suddenly this Call of Duty thing didn't seem like a good idea. Unwilling to assist in her rebranding as a normal conservative, I suggested we cross-examine each other about our controversies instead, which we did.

In May, Brittany from Politically Provoked (a right-leaning and Nazi-friendly group of content creators Destiny helped get off the ground) approached me about doing a 2v2 debate: me and Destiny vs Nick Fuentes and Baked Alaska. The topic would be the January 6 Capitol insurrection.

Before the insurrection, at the nearby Freedom Plaza, Fuentes told his followers: "Our Founding Fathers would get in the streets, and they would take this country back by force if necessary. And that is what we must be prepared to do."

Baked Alaska livestreamed himself inside the Capitol and was sentenced to two months in prison in January 2023.

By this point, though I loved Destiny on a personal level, I'd come to the conclusion that he was incapable of taking anything seriously except himself (the only topic about which he has zero sense of humor). The three of them would have enjoyed some jovial sparring while I indignantly poured my heart out about my love of America.

I turned down the debate. I was replaced by an 18-year-old progressive Swedish streamer named Rose Wrist. Don't let his age fool you–he's the best debater I've ever encountered, weakened only by his admiration for Destiny (which I suspect he will grow out of if he hasn't already).

The debate was streamed on May 22 and uploaded by Destiny with the title "Destiny And Rosewrist Trigger Fuentes And BakedAlaska In Jan 6 Debate." It went as I expected it would, with Destiny and Fuentes snickering throughout and trading playful jabs. I became concerned that, despite his oft-repeated goal of pulling audiences to the left, Destiny was sanitizing Fuentes by treating him like he's just another wacky streamer rather than a racist and fascist politician with a sizable following.

The gravity of January 6 was not at all apparent in the debate. Listening to the typical debate bro sparring, you'd have no indication that, just four months earlier, Fuentes had been subpoenaed by the House committee investigating the insurrection.

Nor would you have an inkling that in November 2022, six months after the debate, Fuentes would be having dinner with Kanye West and Donald Trump.

Rose Wrist: When Nick said, "I say that we should not leave this Capitol until Donald Trump is inaugurated president," what did he mean by this?

Destiny laughed.

Destiny: He meant in 2024.

Rose Wrist laughed.

Fuentes: When I said we're not leaving until Trump is inaugurated president, we're saying that we're protesting outside the Capitol until Mike Pence does the right thing and doesn't count the votes.

Destiny: Wait, so the goal was then to affect the outcome.

Fuentes: When we were there on the protest, yeah. Because Trump said "you're going to go out to the Capitol and make your voices heard."

Destiny: Wait, hold on, did I just have a fucking stroke? I thought you just said that wasn't the goal. I thought you were-

Fuentes: The goal was not to breach the capital and suspend the vote from occurring. You're talking about two different things. What Trump said was go to the lawn and make your voices heard, which is what we did.

Later in the debate, while Fuentes and Baked Alaska argued passionately that there had been election fraud in 2020, Destiny turned to the side and began playing his piano–he occasionally does this to signify that his opponent is not making a good point.

Around the same time, starting in April. Fuentes had begun occasionally streaming with Stardust, a fellow Destiny orbiter. In DMs to me, Stardust said she was worried about being outwitted by Fuentes. I told her it would probably be safer to just interview him rather than try to fight him, but she wound up doing neither, opting instead for friendly chats with him and other far right figures.

Since Fuentes is banned from all major platforms, a YouTube streamer who is willing to regularly feature him is an invaluable resource to him. Though I'd asked to interview him several months earlier (he didn't respond at the time), I decided the best policy going forward would be zero contact. I still wasn't sure how to handle my colleagues rubbing shoulders with him, so I ignored it.

Destiny did the following streams with Fuentes during the summer of 2022:

June 14: "Talk with Fuentes about vaccines, Jews"

An excerpt:

Destiny [while playing a video game]: Let's say that you could wipe away all of the, like, the Jewish interests–this is a really hard question obviously–like what percentage do you think of problems for you that would fix? Or in terms of like, building your dream America or your dream society? [...] How much does that go towards making your world what you want it to be?

Fuentes: Mm, that's a good question, I don't know exactly–

Destiny: And I'm not talking about like a genocide, I'm just saying like you snap your fingers and it disappears or whatever, right. Yeah, I'm not trying to Holocaust or whatever.

Fuentes [laughing]: Yeah, well, I see what you're saying. What percentage of the problems can be attributed to influence of power, you know, hypothetically if we're conceding there is that for the sake of the argument. Probably like thirty to forty percent. Maybe fifty.

Destiny: So still a sizable amount. That's a pretty big amount. Do you feel like your community and you are [...] ninety-five percent in line with what you believe in regards to this stuff?

Fuentes: Uh, yeah. I think for the most part, I think for the most part there's agreement.

Destiny: Okay.

July 18: "Talk w/ Nick Fuentes about Lauren Southern and her manifesto"

August 1: "War on women panel with Fuentes, Taftaj, Stardust"

August 5: "Sneako connects with Nick Fuentes"

(Destiny had begun collaborating with Sneako a few weeks prior.)

August 11: "Talk w/ Nick and Lauren about their beef"

August 17: "Race Debate w/ SNEAKO, ABA, JIDION, YOUNG DON And NICK"

In this stream, Sneako had brought Fuentes onto a panel with three popular black creators, introducing him as his friend. Fuentes, a skilled rhetorician, began to proselytize about race with little pushback, and in some cases bemused laughter from the black streamers. Destiny joined the panel and pushed back, but some members of his community (myself included) felt that Destiny was partly responsible for Sneako exposing Fuentes to hundreds of thousands of viewers who had likely never heard of him before.

ChudLogic, also an orbiter and my friend at the time, DMed me about it.

ChudLogic: Did you watch the crazy panel last night?

Man it is kinda worrying how people fall so hard for Nick Fuentes

Me: I saw thirty seconds of it and couldn't watch.

This was a major turning point for Nick, and exposed him to hundreds of thousands if not millions of new people.

And exposed him in the most sanitized possible light.

ChudLogic: Man

I kinda feel that Destiny has this habit of like

Giving some cover to the worst people

Then swooping in to debate them at the last minute

It happed [sic] with Lauren Southern, happened here too

But it's difficult to provide this feedback in a way that people don't lose their shit over

Me: Destiny has helped Fuentes and Southern immensely.

Even if he destroys them in a debate, the fact that he's debating them at all (and being friendly with them 90% of the time) lends them a ton of credibility.

He's repeatedly said he wants to talk to whomever he wants and doesn't see this as a responsibility though.

I wouldn't go on that panel.

Destiny's audience seems to like that he doesn't take on that responsibility.

Or put it on others.

ChudLogic: People keep sending it to me to watch

'KEK TOP MEMES'

Like

Nick Fuentes is a fucking racist man

Is it really memes????

Me: Yeah it's all a joke. Even though we know people get completely and absolutely radicalized by the political content they watch.

ChudLogic: When did it become funny to just be racist?

Age of the Gigachad strikes again

“Gigachad" is a chat emote–similar to an emoji–derived from a digitally altered photo of Russian model Krista Sudmalis. "Chad" comes from incel ideology, which divides men into tiers of desirability and genetic superiority, Chads being in the top tier.

The emote is used semi-ironically, particularly when someone is willing to make themselves look bad. If a debate opponent says, "Okay, so if you believe the government should make decisions about women's reproductive systems, then you must also be okay with police officers fucking you in the ass, right?" You say: "Yes I am." The chat will go wild with gigachad emotes.

As in the above example, a gigachad maneuver allows you to appear to be standing your ground, but really you're dodging a counterargument by being funny. However, if the audience thinks the counterargument was stupid in the first place, they will support your decision to mock it rather than engage.

Political streamers are mostly cowards, which complicates things, because they will use this move to actually evade a good argument, while pretending that they are only pretending to evade a good argument. It's costly to take a hard stance on anything, so streamers will avoid it if possible, and ironic humor affords them a lot of cover.

And one final wrinkle is TOS–YouTube and Twitch will ban you if you're too bigoted, but audiences love to watch streamers teeter on the edge of what's allowed.

These dynamics combine to create what ChudLogic has dubbed "The Age of the Gigachad," where the center-left streamers in Destiny's sphere use ironic bigotry to gain status and avoid appearing "soy" (effeminately sensitive) and thus implicitly endorsing progressive cancel culture. As it stands, the community is ill-equipped to condemn actual bigotry as long as it's funny. And Nick Fuentes is funny.

ChudLogic: Man it is really fucked up

I think I am feeling a bit burnt out to be honest

Me: Burnt out from what?

Working? Or the depressing reality of online politics?

Age of the Gigachad, yeah. It's the SJWs being triggered and calling everything racist that made it funny. They give cover to actual racism.

No one likes being policed by the other side, but now no one will police their own side.

ChudLogic: The reality of it all. I honestly just want to do a week of playing video games

Me: You should do a stream about the age of the gigachad.

Unless you already have and I missed it.

ChudLogic: No not yet

Sure

I will watch this panel I think

Me: I think it'll be meaningful coming from you.

It's always awkward calling out Steven but don't play video games for a week just to avoid it lol.

I know that's not what you're saying, but that is how it'll come across.

ChudLogic: Yeah for sure.

The problem is I think that Steven came on and debated him. But it is the shit he has done up until now that is the issue

Like how exactly did it get to the stage where Sneako and Nick Fuentes were talking?

People were like 'Destiny DESTROYED Fuentes'

OK, what about when he was memeing with him and shit?

I think Steven realises this. He posted into DGG about it

(He sent a screenshot of two messages Destiny had written in his offline chat: I gotta lean in harder against Nick with so many duders present. can't let him preach to that many people lol)

ChudLogic: Maybe I am reading too much into it, but this comes across as him realising shits getting real and wanting to reign it in

Mate these clips are stomach churning.

Me: Yes.

It almost doesn't matter what he says now.

Sneako wouldn't have even known Fuentes existed.

I haven't watched any clips but I keep seeing screenshots of everyone laughing together except Steven.

This is the largest panel audience I have ever seen Steven stream with.

ChudLogic: Nick - says racist thing 'ironically' (but we know he really believes it)

Every black person - starts laughing

Oh shit I didn't even tell you

I am in a group chat of DGGers

Nick Fuentes is in there

Me: Nick is allowing them to believe that he feels about white people the same way they feel about black people, but that is not true.

The black people on the panel want equality and maybe some of them want their own spaces. They do not want an ethnostate where whites are enslaved or killed.

Me: Yeah...

ChudLogic: Since I realised I am not going to post in there. I don't want Nick fucking Fuentes knowing my business what the fuck

People were wishing him Happy Birthday

Honestly I think I am actually disturbed by it. Like it has had a profound effect to see it first hand like that

This guy is bad fucking news

Me: Yeah I can tell you are freaked out.

ChudLogic: Yeah sorry man haha

Me: Ever since I saw the clip of him saying explicitly that you have to pretend you're joking when you talk about Jews or denying the Holocaust, I've been horrified by his adept use of humor and yeah, the path to power and prominence afforded to him by the age of the gigachad.

Racist jokes are supposed to be funny because you're making fun of racist people.

Nick just seems like a sociopath who knows how to work a room and accomplish multiple complex goals at the same time while seeming like he is just screwing around.

Two days later, Chudlogic told me that he'd watched the full race panel and that it wasn't as bad as he'd originally thought based on the clips.

On August 22, Destiny invited Fuentes over to his house for a friendly in-person chat. Left-leaning content creators criticized Destiny harshly for the stream, but none of Destiny's orbiters gave any serious pushback. I was alarmed.

Two days later, Destiny, Fuentes, and Melina went to a chicken and waffles restaurant on stream. While they were sitting at an outside table, a passer-by noticed the camera and joked around with Fuentes, suggesting he swap his mirrored sunglasses for more serious-looking glasses.

Fuentes: Yeah? Are you Jewish by any chance?

Destiny [laughing]: Why would you say–

Man: No, I'm Irish-Italian.

Fuentes: Okay. Oh, based!

Man: The nose gave it away?

Fuentes: Yeah, a little bit.

Man: Well, cheers to you. Why, are you another Jew?

Fuentes: No, no, I'm like you. I'm Irish and Italian.

Man: Oh, all right.

Fuentes: Yeah, these are cool glasses. All right?

The man said a friendly goodbye and left.

Destiny: What if he was Jewish?

Fuentes: He looked a little–

Destiny: Were you gonna start a fight? What if he was like, "Yeah, I am. What about it?"

Fuentes explained that because of the Jewish population in Miami, he suspected that Jews would be targeting him, a well-known antisemite, for harassment.

Destiny said, "I just–when I think of like, all the possible paths of like that conversation that could–I just, when you do the like, 'Are you Jewish?' I don't see it ever being better than just not saying anything."

This lukewarm admonishment might actually be the harshest moral condemnation from Destiny I have ever seen.

ChudLogic said to me in DMs: It makes me super uncomfortable that they are hanging out for real, honestly

We planned our Age of the Gigachad stream. Chud asked me to invite Destiny, and I did, warning him that it was likely we'd be talking about his recent streams with Fuentes.

On August 26, we did the stream. I explained ChudLogic's thesis, and then Destiny and I locked horns almost immediately.

I'm going to give you a granular play-by-play of how these conversations went down, because it is emblematic of Destiny's evasiveness and how dangerous it can be in certain contexts.

I'm also going to include some of his audience's reactions. I want to show you how they've been taught to think like Destiny by consuming dozens of hours of his content every week, often at 1.5x or 2x speed. I'm reminded of something he said to me shortly after I met him. I asked him how he would handle his fans being angry with him because he'd cruelly mocked a woman on Twitter for, in his estimation, having poor sexual boundaries and then sharing her negative experience. He said: "The audience can only remember three things at a time. So I'll just do three more streams and then they'll stop talking about it."

I was shocked by his contempt for his audience when he said that, and in these debates, I was shocked by his contempt for me. It would be another two months before I would officially cut ties with Destiny, but this stream was the beginning of the end.

Destiny: There has been a battle older than all of us on how to draw the lines at satire and irony. Every famous comedian that I know of that's engaged in edgy or racial humor has come to regret some skits and move back on positions they previously held. [...] Louis C.K. has had a lot of reflections like the word faggot. There's a lot of stuff that's gone on where people have engaged in edgy humor and then upon further reflection like, "I think I'm gonna walk this back a little bit, I don't know if I'm engaging with [this] in the best way." [...] I'm big on responsibility. I think there is a level of responsibility you have to assume when you engage in these types of humors. And you have to be aware of what your goal is at the end of the day with what you're doing, because it's very possible to very easily wind up as the unintentional nuclear weapon of an incredibly hateful or evil community without being aware that that's happening, you know?

[...]

Me: Steven, I think comparing somebody like Fuentes or Trump–like these are the people that come to my mind when we're talking about right wing jokes that are also the person saying what they actually believe, kind of. Comparing that to Louis C.K.–like he's a comedian, right?

Destiny: Oh yeah, hold on, wait, to be clear, just so–I'm not comparing them to Louis C.K. [...] I'd be comparing somebody like me to that person, right? Like I'm hoping that I'm the comedian that's saying a thing that's kind of offensive that I don't actually–

Me: But you're not a comedian you're a poli–

Destiny: You can cope like that if you want, but comedy is part of what we do, whether you're–

Me: No, I'm not coping motherfucker.

Destiny: Okay, Jesus.

Me: I'm saying that you–your existence online is not–you're not a comedian. People don't say "Who's Destiny?" They don't say "He's a comedian," right?

Destiny: Sure, you're wrong. You're just wrong, right? People that do YouTube–

Me: No, actually I'm right.

Destiny: –for entertainment, right, that involve elements of comedy, that those aspects of comedy can involve irony.

Me: Yes.

Destiny: Satire and irony is not reserved for people that write "comedian" on their tax forms.

Me: I'm not saying that it is. I'm saying you're literally–if somebody asks me who you are–"Who's your buddy Steven?" I don't say, "He's a comedian."

Destiny: Okay, maybe, let me–I'll phrase this in a way cuz I don't think–there's no way you can possibly disagree with me here, so let me–

Me: Just call me stupid. Let it flow.

Destiny: No it's not stupid, we're playing semantics games. When you do comedy, how about that? So not comedians, but people that do comedy. Is that okay?

Me: It's okay. It's different when Louis C.K. does comedy, because he's doing it for the purpose of making people laugh, then when Trump does comedy or when you do comedy you're doing it for the purpose of illustrating a political message. Now, comedians can do that–I'm not saying they're totally separate from each other–but your goal, as an entity, is political commentary.

(Destiny will go to extreme lengths to avoid conceding even the smallest point–that he is obviously not a comedian–and will even use the smallness of the point as an argument for why it shouldn't be discussed further.)

[...]

Me: I feel like you're pre empting by calling yourself a comedian that Steven Crowder calls himself a comedian.

ChudLogic: Ooh, good point, let's go!

Destiny: Okay, let's get away from the word, [...] the "comedian" word is rotting your mind and we're about to waste a whole bunch of time talking about the word "comedian."

Me: We can talk about the word "comedian" for five hours if you want to, but it is a piece of armor that you have donned, and I'm saying I want to acknowledge that you're putting on that armor because I don't think you, or me, or Chud deserves that armor. I don't think Steven Crowder deserves the comedian armor, either. I think a comedian gets a certain leeway to say more outrageous things for the sake of a joke than a political commentator.

Destiny: Okay, I totally disagree. So I don't even know where we go from there.

ChudLogic: What another thing I wanted to throw in there, too is, wasn't there a court case where Tucker Carlson–I mean, he didn't say he was a comedian, but I think it was something along the lines of nothing he said is supposed to be taken seriously.

[...]

Me: I think that is a defense often used by infotainment people [...] like us. [...] We're telling you stuff that's happening. And we're telling you what we think about it. And we're making jokes along the way. And I think you don't get your news or political takes from a comedian. But you do get them from Destiny.

Destiny: What would you consider Jon Stewart, for The Daily Show?

Me: Infotainment. [...] Jon Stewart ain't the same as Louie C.K.,

[...]

ChudLogic: I think that the Steven Crowder thing is probably the best example, because Steven Crowder calls himself a comedian. What defense, if any, does that give him, and why would that not that apply to you as well?

Destiny: The same defense it would give any of us, I would say. One hundred percent.

Me: Well, that's why I don't think we should do it.

Destiny: Okay. You can argue that point if you want, I mean, I would just disagree. I think that one problem in your head is you think that when I say that it's comedy, that that gives you carte blanche to say or do anything. You can still be responsible within the realm of comedy.

Me: No, I understand. We all do comedy from time to time. I'm just saying we're not comedians.

Destiny: Okay, what is the difference between the responsibility of a comedian versus just a normal person? I'm just curious, what do you think is the difference? Because I don't see any difference in the responsibility whatsoever.

Me: You're not a normal person. You are a political fucking giant. You're not a normal person. And, like, Trump isn't a normal person. Right? People with huge followings and huge amounts of political influence are not normal people. I would say me and Chud aren't even normal people.

Destiny: I don't disagree. I'm trying to find [...] the difference in what you think the responsibility should be between me and a comedian.

Me: The difference is that people are looking to you to figure out what they think about politics, and people are not generally looking to Louie C.K. to figure out what they think about politics.

Destiny: [...] Do you not think that people are influenced by the types of jokes or things that these people say?

Me: They are, but those are similarities. You're asking me about differences. The difference is a fan of you, or a fan of me, or a fan of Chud is looking up to us politically. [...]

Destiny: Okay. I understand what you're saying, I just don't think that difference matters.

ChudLogic: Okay, so I guess the concept then, is that because there's some level of this, looking at this happening, the concern is rooted in this idea of like, going for a friendly meal with Nick Fuentes, even if you're, you know, having a disagreement with him at some point, is a problem. Right? That's kind of where we are with this, I guess.

Awkward silence.

Destiny: Well, get into it. What do you want to say?

ChudLogic seemed to be stalling out, so I decided to speak for both of us (again).

Me: Um, okay, I have some things to say about–

ChudLogic interrupted me and folded immediately.

ChudLogic: The thing that, okay, right, [...] we planned this ambush very, you know, in a lot of detail, [...] we just spoke about it, you know, behind the scenes, I'm sure [mrgirl] doesn't mind me revealing a few nonspecific details that you know, flesh it out a bit. But you know, there's been times where like, you know, I've soyed out a bit when I've seen something you're doing and I'm like, "What the fuck is this? This sounds crazy." But then when I watch the content, I'm like, "Okay, this doesn't seem as bad as I thought." Like some of the ways it's described on Twitter and stuff, obviously, you buy into it a little bit. And then lo and behold, you look at it and you're like, "No, Destiny has gone on and fucking slammed Fuentes in this, you know, Sneako conversation, you know? And then it's the same thing, where I'll be like, "Fuck me. You went for dinner with Nick Fuentes, what the hell?" And then I watch it. And I'm like, "Okay, this doesn't seem quite as bad as I thought." So I keep having this problem where I have a reaction to it, and there's been times where I've messaged mrgirl and been like, "Oh, did you–what's going on here? What's this about? Have you seen this? This is crazy." And then I watch it, and I'm a bit more like, "Okay, well, that's fine." And then mrgirl gets freaked out because, you know, I've watched it, and I'm not freaking out like I was before. Do you know what I mean? And it's like, but I do understand having like an emotional response or an emotional reaction to the idea of it happening. The problem I have is like, what's the actual harm or what's the actual outcome off the back of–even if you think it's bad, even if you think there's bad things happening–what is actually gonna happen at the other end? Like, are we going to have the Fourth Reich? Are we gonna have a Holocaust? Like, probably not. So what is the issue, you know?

Me: I disagree with that. I think Holocaust and genocide are the normal state of humanity, and that it requires people who are actually going to prevent them in power to avoid. So I don't–the idea that we're never going to commit genocide or some mass atrocity–

ChudLogic: Wait, no, come on mate, that's fucking bullshit. I'm not saying we're never going to commit an atrocity.

Me: Then what are you saying?

ChudLogic: [...] What I'm saying is I don't see how we're going to have–it's like people act like Nick Fuentes and Destiny having chicken and waffles is going to lead to the Fourth Reich and a Holocaust, and I just, I just don't see

Me: That's a straw man. That's a straw man. That's not–

ChudLogic: Well you just straw manned me, so I straw manned you, fuck you, there we go.

Me: I'm not straw manning, I'm saying [...] that's like saying if you litter you're killing all the whales. [...] You're kind of expanding the outcome of a pretty small occurrence.

At this point he was not only folding, but actively running interference for Destiny.

ChudLogic: So you could say, okay, if you litter [...] that's bad for the town that you're in and it makes it look like shit. so throw your rubbish away, right? So how would you strap that on to the idea of Destiny having dinner with Nick Fuentes, for example?

Me: I believe that by having dinner with Nick Fuentes. Steven, you're sanitizing him.

Destiny: Okay. That's probably true to some extent, yeah.

Me: And I see it in your subreddit. I gotta stop reading your subreddit, but I see it in your subreddit. [...] There's a lot of jokes like, "Oh, [...] because I saw Steven and Nick have waffles, now I'm a Nazi." Or like, "Now I want there to be a Holocaust, blah, blah." And it seems like the general response of your community is, "We're not brainwashable and we're not influenceable, we're too smart for Fuentes to screw with our heads. And then there's another line that's like, "Well, Fuentes is just an awkward kid. He's like me, I'm his age, we would play Minecraft together." It's like, this guy tried to overthrow the fucking government. He's not a normal kid like you, he's like a radicalized political like possible terrorist, or like committing treason. Yeah, he might play Minecraft, yeah, sure, it is weird to see somebody who does things like that and then see their human normal side and be like, "Oh, they're like a normal person." But that is sanitization at work. [...] I've turned down every possible appearance with Fuentes, and [...] I've never spoken to him directly, but through intermediaries I've said the only way I will talk to Fuentes is in a one-on-one conversation that's like an interview. And the same thing with Lauren Southern–originally I was supposed to play video games with Lauren [...] [but] I found out about her boat thing and I was like, "Well I don't really want to talk to her about anything except the boat thing." And so I'm not saying I won't talk to her. And I'm not saying I think you shouldn't talk to Fuentes, but the gigachad thing is the reason I think you shouldn't have dinner with Fuentes. Because you and him make the same jokes. When you're joking around with him, you're making fun of progressives. And when conservatives joke around, they also make fun of progressives. [...] He pretends to be a Nazi, and when you joke around, you pretend to be a Nazi, but he's actually a Nazi. And so it just feels like because of this dynamic, [...] and because Nick Fuentes has said explicitly that he uses humor and irony as a way to get his Holocaust denial or racism–to give cover to it–he's literally said that explicitly. That makes it even more dangerous.

Destiny: Okay.

ChudLogic: You're not worried you're getting used by Nick Fuentes?

Destiny: Well, I mean, we're trying to use each other as much as possible.

ChudLogic: That's a weird dynamic, though, right?

Destiny: Welcome to online politics. Do you want me to go?

ChudLogic: Yeah, sure.

Destiny: Okay. So there's like two main different strategies when it comes to dealing with people that are severely politically misaligned with you. I'll say that–severely politically misaligned. So one avenue that we kind of experimented with online was ban, censor, disengage, don't platform. And we did that relentlessly for three to four years. When I look at the communities that were in charge of that, all of them are dead and gone. Breadtube is gone. That subreddit, if I go and check probably has like–there's no more engagement there. All of the big breadtubers, when people were talking about them rising up and taking over–there's 114 active users on breadtube right now. [...] So it feels like that project of deplatform, disengage, don't address those people–one, not only are they all dead and gone, two, I don't think any of those people converted anybody. Maybe they got really radical people from the right and made them really radical people on the left, but I find that most of those communities have only served to re-radicalize people, not deradicalize people. Most people that I would see in the hardcore breadtube communities are about as harmful or bad for society as most people that are in the far right communities. They have a huge disengagement with the current political system, they have a huge disavowal with the current establishment, and it ends up causing them to horseshoe together on some positions that I would have never imagined. For instance, disavowing our support of Ukraine in favor of Russia, because on the right they think that Russian values are something that we should push for, and because on the left they think that American imperialism is always wrong and there are Nazis in Ukraine. So for effectiveness of the project, it seems like it failed on two fronts. One, the channels died because they were boring and sucked, and two, they didn't really penetrate any other communities. You didn't see these people besides really me and Vaush making headway into arguing with other people or gaining respect, or gaining some kind of hold or having some kind of penetration into the other communities on the right. So let's say all of that's true, let's assume that's true. It is. I've lived it.

Me: Wait, hold on–

Destiny: I'm not gonna get to fin–? I'm gonna keep talking–

ChudLogic: Let Destiny finish.

Destiny: [...] You can ask a quick question if you want, but you just laid out your whole shit. So I'm not gonna let you cut me off when I'm trying to lay out my whole shit, but you can ask a quick question if you want, go.

Me: Okay. Do you acknowledge that they are not horseshoeing on ethnic cleansing?

Destiny: Um, I don't know. I'm not sure about that one now. When I see all [...] these huge tweets blowing up about how important it is that black people can maintain bloodline purity, when I see talk about getting rid of colonizers from Western countries, that type of stuff is getting very close to it. A lot of that rhetoric is indistinguishable from–actually, it's more extreme than what Nick Fuentes would say now. So I can't answer that question.

ChudLogic: The trouble is, I do think that they're–

Destiny: No, no, no, no, wait, [...] I want to continue to finish my thing. [...] So when I look at my engagement with these other communities, I'm trying to contextualize it in the realm of what is happening today politically in the United States, and largely in the entire Western world, okay? So right now, I feel like our biggest problem is everybody's becoming more and more divided over how we see the world. That more people are moving into these very homogenous, ideologically pure groups, and that's kind of the trend that we've been working towards. So if that is the case, my goal that aligns with what I would want to see happen politically, and with my unique talents, is I'm able to go to other communities, I'm able to maintain my ideological purity–I'm not a fucking Nazi, I haven't turned into a conservative, I'm not turning into a white supremacist, and I'm able to penetrate these communities using things like humor, affability, willingness to have conversation or debate, and willingness to debate on hard grounds like fact and logic, I'm able to make headways in these communities like nobody else from my side of the political aisle has ever done before. If you want to criticize it, there are times when I'm a bit too kind, or I don't push back enough, there's tons of criticisms there. [...] But I think that I'm in a unique position that nobody else on the left is able to be in, and I'm not going to go back to like, "Oh, deplatform, get rid of, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah," because I see that as a an entirely failed model for all of Western politics, and I don't want to go down that road again because I feel like it's already failed.

Me: Well, I don't want you to go down that road either. I don't think Fuentes should be deplatformed.

Destiny: Okay.

Me: But you don't have to grow him either.

Destiny: I mean, it's going to be inevitable that anybody that I react with or engage with in some manner is going to experience some growth if they're smaller than me. [...]

Me: Absolutely. [...] But I think [...] because of that, the way that you interact with them is pretty crucial. [...] If you debate Fuentes on the Holocaust, antisemitism, racism, ethnostate[s], Christian nationalism, whatever, any of those topics. [...] I would have no negative reaction to that at all.

Destiny: Sure, I understand. But [...] what I'm trying to do is take it one step further. I can do the debate, debate, debate, debate, but I don't want to come off as an overly hostile person all the time in these communities. I want to be seen as somebody that can joke with them, that can, more importantly, understand what they're saying. And then three, engage in a more friendly manner. Because you always have a higher chance of kind of reconfiguring somebody's mind rather than just being overtly combative.

Me: But Nick Fuentes wants to come off to your community as somebody who is not always hostile, who can engage in a friendly manner, who is open-minded and understands the concerns of your viewers. Right?

Destiny: I understand. And if he's able to do that in a successful way then I hope my whole viewership turns into Nazis and they go march in the Third Reich. This is what I've spent the better part of the last 10 years working towards. If I can't hold on to my fan base, and I lose them all to a convincing Nazi, then fuck me, then I deserve it. And you know what, maybe it's a better ideology. Fuck it. If it's that hard to hold people towards liberalism or progressive ideas then it was always doomed to fail anyway. Like, there are aspects of my engagement with Fuentes that upset people, but I can talk about things with him in a context with him that I could have only dreamed of two or three years ago. I can preach until I'm blue in the face about the importance of like social welfare, and how important it is to take care of the underdog blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but in a totally organic setting, I can get a far right Christian nationalist to ask me, "Hey, [...] why do you think the things you do about progressive values?" And I can get him to ask me that question in a genuine manner. And I'm able to talk about it, him asking that and giving me the opportunity to talk about that in front of his audience. That's a type of access to their empathy that was unattainable before, I could have never done something [like] that before just screaming about how important social welfare is in the middle of a debate.

Me: But at the same time, you're giving him more access to a much larger–

Destiny: Community, sure, I am. [...] But I mean, that's always going to be the trade off [...] as you enter these communities more and more. Yeah, theoretically they could turn your audience, but I mean if you think you're fighting for the right stuff, or believe the right stuff, like hopefully you can hold on to them. [...]

Me: [...] I don't think the framing of you would lose your audience to him is right. I think that they'll stay with you because you're friends with him. They can be Nazis and be fans of you. You now have Nazi fans.

Destiny: Probably.

Me: Right? The idea that a white nationalist doesn't like you because they can't tolerate hearing anything slightly different from their ideology–they don't have to leave your community to become Nazis now.

Destiny: But that's–I want that. I want there to be a–because, if you're following me for long enough–

Me: But do you want your own community to turn into Nazis?

Destiny: No. [...] If a figurehead is sitting at the top of the community, slowly over time, that community is going to look more and more like that figurehead. That's probably always gonna be the case with any community. And I don't need a community full of progressives to listen to me preach to them every day about systemic racism and why we should support Biden or why Republicans are quasi-fascist now under Trump. I don't want to preach to them about that, I don't care about that, they already believe that and can go to Vaush and get those opinions. But if I can get people that are ideologically incredibly different than me and my fan base–which I'm seeing show up all over my subreddit, all over my YouTube comments, in negative ways on my Twitter, and in my emails–these are people that slowly over time can hopefully get a bigger buy in into the things that I talk about. That's the goal. And I don't see any other way to get those people to watch me other than to show them that I can be in your communities with a level of understanding and humor that makes me like an empathetic character.

[...]

ChudLogic: I guess one thing I do want to ask as well is do you understand? I appreciate there's like an extremist response where people call you a Nazi and shit, sure, but do you maybe understand why some people feel uncomfortable or wary about you going to dinner with someone like Nick Fuentes?

Destiny: I understand everything. I understand every point of view simultaneously and all at once, okay? Yes, right? The feeling is that from their point of view, somebody like Nick Fuentes has slowly kind of fettered out of reality. He's not somebody that anybody talks about anymore. He's kind of an irrelevant figure. And now all of a sudden, not only am I engaging him in hostile debate, I'm presenting him to my community, which is growing at unprecedented rates, and I'm putting him in front of an entirely new audience to reach out to that he might have never had access to before. So people have this fear in their mind that if I engage with him in a friendly manner, that I'm going to turn him into the next Hasan or Vaush because I'm gonna siphon off a huge portion of my community to go become Nazis and follow him. And there is no reason for me to do that other than the selfish pursuits of profits or viewership on my channel. I think that's the main problem that people have with me.

[...]

ChudLogic: I think that, you know, I understand why people kind of get frustrated. But I think my concern's probably aligned somewhat with mrgirl's, but it's more so like your community that can be really fucking annoying sometimes. But it comes back to how responsible are you for that? Because one thing I know is that your community sometimes will have this response where it's like, "Come on, guys, what's the problem with debating Nick Fuentes? We've got to debate bad ideas." And then the goalposts just get shifted slowly and slowly to like, "Well, come on, guys. What's the problem with having dinner with Nick Fuentes?" You know, and it's just like–

Destiny: Yeah, sure, and it's a balancing game that I have to play, I understand there's a responsibility and sometimes I might not go far enough, sometimes I might go too far, it's a struggle, there's a lot that I'm trying to balance, a lot of plates spinning in the air, of course, I understand that. But like the other side, I think has wholly failed in what they've attempted to do, like spectacularly failed, and when I see how crybaby and disgusting and unempathetic and mindfucked it is like watching people on the left trying to engage people they disagree with–people always say, "Oh, well, Destiny, can't you be empathetic towards those other people? [...] Can you be empathetic towards me?" Yeah, I guess. But can you guys be empathetic towards any of the right wingers that feel like they have no voice on the internet? Any of the people that were like, "Oh, I think it's okay to be white," and got banned off of platforms for saying–[...] And like, "No! Those people are racist and evil, that's different. You should feel bad for us because we're righteous and good, and we're people of color and trans, but the other people are fucking evil. They're ontologically evil. They're Nazis, they're racist–it's like no, well fuck you. As far as the left shows empathy to the right is nonexistent. So for them to beg me for empathy when all of their platforms are failing, and they failed to to penetrate any of these communities at all, it is rich to me. I don't enjoy that.

Me: [...] When you say the right, I feel like you're giving cover for Fuentes.

Destiny: I disagree.

[...]

Me: The idea that fascism, ethnic cleansing, and overthrowing your government–your republican government–are extensions of the right is–I don't agree with that. I think that's insane.

Destiny: Five years ago, I would have agreed with you. But I think that Nick has shifted a little bit more to the left in getting rid of the ultra extremist, at least the antisemitic rhetoric, and I think that the main Republican Party has shifted significantly to the right. So when we talk about problematic things that Fuentes says, that's true, but today, seventy-percent of the Republican party thinks that the election was stolen. I think that the Republican Party–

Me: Thinking the election was stolen is different from storming the Capitol.

Destiny: No, you're–ah, sorry. That is not true. That is a there is a ten foot bridge from A to B. The Capitol was stormed because they thought–

Me: Ten foot? No, no, that's insane. It's not ten feet from believing in a conspiracy to going and risking your life to try to act on believing that conspiracy.

Destiny: I think they're right connected to each other. It's right there.

Me: Well, then why were there only a couple thousand people there?

Destiny: I don't know why there were–

Me: If seventy percent of Republicans think that the election was stolen, [...] why weren't there ten million people storming the Capitol?

Destiny: Because I don't know how many of them had the money to fly out for the inauguration or whatever.

Me: That's not why, no. There's a difference between vaguely believing in a conspiracy theory and actually believing that you have a fucking direct connection to God telling you to go storm the Capitol. And then going and doing it.

Destiny: I don't have an answer for why more people didn't fly in. But like what I know today–

Me: Cuz they're not fucking insane!

Destiny: I disagree.

Me; Nick Fuentes is insane.

Destiny: I disagree.

Me: Do you think Nick Fuentes is insane?

Destiny: I don't even like the word insane. He's very far right, I would agree with that. For sure.

Me: Okay, okay.

Destiny: [...] This is what I think–if Trump came out as a fascist leader, I think that over 51% of the Republican Party would support him and the overthrow of the government. I think they would. And that's where we're at right now. Over half of them believe that the election was rigged. How many supported him like sending the military to build the wall? How many supported him unilaterally–

Me: Supporting him is different from going.

Destiny: I don't know how many people would go for–I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.

Me: That's what I'm saying. I just like you're doing the thing that people do all the time. You have incels, and then you have mass shooters.

Destiny: Okay.

Me: They might have some beliefs in common, but there's a big fucking difference between "I'm an incel and blah, blah, blah," and "I'm actually going to go shoot people."

Destiny: Sure. [...] There's a difference between how we even quantify what we would consider harmful because I would say that a lot of the bad rhetoric on the left led to [...] over one to two billion of property damage over the BLM riots. But none of that is considered extremist violence. None of that is considered extremist rhetoric. Nobody knows how many died during the BLM riots, right? All of that was okay, because–

Me: I consider rioting and burning down businesses and municipal buildings and blowing up cop cars and setting dumpsters on fire–I consider that extremist violence. Now, a lot of that is also opportunist violence. People see other people doing something and they just join in because they're angry or whatever, they want to steal TVs, whatever. Not every single person doing that violence is an extremist themselves, right?

Destiny: That's probably of the January 6 people as well, yeah?

Me: Well, that's true of January 6, except Nick Fuentes is not one of the people who's just joining in because he wants to see what the inside of the Capitol looks like. He's not one of the people who's just like, "Oh, I feel like throwing a brick through a window."

ChudLogic: He's a thought leader, right?

Me: He's a thought leader, he's an instigator, and he has said he is proud of that role that he played. And again, it's the fucking Capitol building, and they were going in to try to kill Mike Pence. And they're not raiding a fucking Footlocker.

Destiny: I don't know what you're trying to convince me of here, I agree. This was all horrible. I think it was uniquely one of the worst moments in American history. But the problem was, it wasn't Nicholas Fuentes and his America First people that were there. It was Nick Fuentes and a bunch of relatively ordinary conservative people that were there, with like five percent being part of the Oathkeepers or whatever. But those were a lot of normal, fat fucking Republican fucking dudes that were just there to raid the building and do shit.

Me: That's true. But he is a political operator. He's not just a normal person.

Destiny: I don't disagree with you.

Me: Okay, so he's not a civilian.

Destiny: Yeah, I don't disagree with you. He's an important political figure in his moment, of course.

Me: [...] I just feel like again, you're providing so much cover for him right now–

Destiny: Stop saying I'm providing cover. I can accurately describe his–

Me: Then stop doing it.

Destiny: I'm not providing cover. He's a far right figure. I think his ideology is damaging for the United States. I think that his movement is largely composed of antisemitic and racist people. [....] What cover am I providing for him? [...]

Me: He's a Nazi. He tried to overthrow the government.

Destiny: Okay.

Me: If somebody asked me, "Who's Nick Fuentes?" I would say he's a Nazi who tried to overthrow the government, he owns a streaming platform, he has been banned from all these places. And he's a friend of a friend, I guess I'd say. I wouldn't say those things about Steven Crowder. Everything you just said to describe Fuentes is true of Steven Crowder.

Destiny: No, I don't know if Crowder's fans are as racist or antisemitic in that same type of way that Fuentes's fans are. It's a different flavor of it. Steven Crowder's fans–

Me: Crowder's fans are not Nazis, they're just far right.

Destiny: Sure, Nazis or whatever word. I don't even know what the fuck people mean when they say that.

[...]

Me: [...] A Nazi is somebody who wants to round people up into camps and kill them or get them out of the country.

Destiny: That's not at all what a Nazi is. There's tons of people that have done that. Mao did that in China, people did that in Japan, we rounded people up in camps in the United States in internment camps in World War II like that, that's not a Nazi. We did that to Native American so, no. [...] Just by you saying you've already proved you don't know what a Nazi is, okay, so let's let's dump that term, cuz it doesn't describe anything.

Me: It's a fascist who believes in racial and ethnic cleansing. A Nazi specifically wants to cleanse out the Jews and other people of color.

Destiny: Sure. So Fuentes doesn't, at least openly, advocate for that anymore. So when you say that you automatically lose anybody that's part of his movement. That might be like a covert thing that they're pushing for, maybe if he had his perfect fucking world–

Me: Wait, explain the mechanism by which I lose somebody who's part of his movement. [...] I guess you're arguing that his fans are not also Nazis.

Destiny: I don't like to use the word Nazi because I don't know what the fuck anybody means when they say that anymore, right?

Me: Well, I just told you what I mean. He wants to cleanse the country of Jews and black people.

Destiny: I don't know if he wants to cleanse the country of Jews [...]. I think that right now their ideal policy positions would be to stop the immigration of black people or brown people to maintain the racial majority of white people, and to try to do something to get Jews out of disproportion positions of power. That would probably be the positions they would put forward now.

Me: That's more realistic, but if Fuentes could do whatever he wanted, if he were the dictator, do you think that's what he would do? You think he would stop there?

Destiny: I don't know. He's given answers before. It's hard to guess. I would imagine he'd probably be more extreme. Probably, like it would involve like mass killing, sure.

Me: Yeah, okay, so then let's just call him a fucking Nazi since you believe that if he came to power he would commit genocide.

Destiny: If you want to play that game, then you play that game. Then you do that. That's not how I communicate with people.

Me: It's not a game.

Destiny: It's a game, it's a language game.

Me: Do you stand by your statement of ten seconds ago [that] he would commit genocide if he came to power?

Destiny: If Fuentes was in power, there's a chance. I don't know one hundred percent.

Me: What do you think?

Destiny: I don't know–I don't care. I'm not trying to divine what's inside of his head I'm trying to deal with the rhetoric that he delivers to his fans, and the positions that he states that I can have a tangible disagreement with, and the things that his fans say. That's what I'm interested in.

Me: Okay, when you say I'm gonna lose his audience you're making it sound like his audience would be like, "How can mrgirl call him a Nazi? He's not a Nazi. He would never do anything like that. We wouldn't want something like that, that's a horrible thing to say." I don't think that's the reaction from his average fan.

Destiny: Because there are probably a chunk of them that don't think that way. [There's] probably a chunk of them that think you know what, there are differences between black people Asian people white people, and I do think Jews are a little fucked. I wish we could just stop all the immigration, at the very least have white people sit at the top of the hierarchy in the United States, let's maintain that racial majority. Let's keep black people, brown people from immigrating here en masse, and let's do something about the disproportionate power that Jewish people have over media and Hollywood. [...] And if they think that then when you go into those committees, you want to fight that thought you have to fight against that, but if you're gonna go in and go like, "You're a Nazi," they're gonna be like, "Oh, fuck you. I'm not a Nazi." And now you've lost them. It's gone. I felt this way before when people called me homophobic in 2012 because I called people fags. The reason why I didn't listen to any of them is because they called me homophobic. I'm not homophobic, I know I'm not homophobic. And I instantly shut those people out. It took me years to learn why you shouldn't use those types of insults. And it's because all the people that could have convinced me otherwise instantly wrote me off as homophobic, and I'm like, "Oh, well, fuck you. I'm not gonna say anything you say." Because I know–

Me: Do you think I'm using Nazi as an insult?

Destiny: Yes, you are using Nazi as an insult. You're choosing that word because it's the one that has the most moral weight and gravity that you can find. That's why you use the word, because it [...] feels good to call somebody a Nazi. It's like a left version of the N-word. You Nazi! Fucking Nazi! It's exactly what–

Me: Have I ever called anybody a Nazi before that you're aware of?

Destiny: Not that I'm aware of. But when you're saying he's a Nazi and all his fans are Nazis–he's a fucking probably a race realist Christian fucking theocratic dude, Christian monarchy, whatever. Like Christian nationalist. There's a lot of–

ChudLogic: [...] You're lumping mrgirl in with the leftoids, come on man. I don't think he's doing that.

Destiny: I'm not trying to lump him in–

ChudLogic: That's what it feels like.

Destiny: I'm not trying to lump him in. I'm saying that the tactic of picking the word that is the most–

Me: It's not a tactic. I literally think he's a Nazi. You want me to use a fucking euphemism to not offend him?

Destiny: It's not a euphemism, just hit the points accurately–

Me: Am I misgendering him? Is that not his preferred pronoun? I think he's literally a Nazi.

Destiny: Okay.

ChudLogic: Didn't we have this discourse as well, where like–

Me: You just said you think he would commit genocide if he were a dictator, against Jewish people? What fucking–what other word do you want to use to describe somebody who believes that? Far right is sanitizing–this is my problem with you not calling him a Nazi is that you are sanitizing him by making it sound like, "Well, some people are against abortion, and then some people are against contraception, and then some people think that [...] evolution shouldn't be taught in school, and then some people want to kill all the Jews." Like it's just the next step in the natural line–like no, it's not the same fucking thing at all.

Destiny: Okay, I would rather engage with the policy positions or with the thoughts that he's stating, than to label them as something and start from there.

Me: Then [...] you should say "I don't want to label him." You shouldn't say he's not a Nazi. Because he is.

Destiny: Okay, if I said that, then I was mistaken. What I should have said was I don't want to call him a Nazi. If you want to call them Nazi and I did say that, go for it, that's on you–

Me: You called him a Nazi on Twitter. You said he's basically a Nazi like two hours ago

Destiny: Sure, then maybe I do sometimes, it's back and forth. What is your even your problem with me? [...] Okay, hold on, the way that I act on Twitter in terms, [...] I'll say that, he's probably basically a Nazi, sure. But when I'm in their community and I'm engaging with them, my goal isn't to soy the fuck out and scream Nazi, Nazi, Nazi, Nazi.

Me: [...] If I could control you, I would like to see you call him a Nazi. But that doesn't mean you have to soy out. You don't have to scream at him–

Destiny: What advantage do I have labeling him a Nazi rather than just engaging with his actual words? What is the advantage?

Me: The advantage–it's not about the advantage to you. It's about not giving cover to Nazism. It's about stopping or challenging this ideology and not providing loopholes, where he sees a big loophole in you. He sees this big gap where you're like, "I don't want to appear soy." Right? That's the worst thing–

ChudLogic: Yes, this is the thing, the criticism. The Age of the Gigachad, yes.

Me: Yes, the worst thing for you emotionally, and your brand, is for you to appear soy. And calling somebody a Nazi is too soy for you, unless you're using it to mock another leftist. He sees that as a big fucking gap that he can just fly right through. And there's no resistance from you.

Destiny: The word Nazi doesn't mean anything anymore, so I can't use that in serious conversation. If we were 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago, maybe. But at this point, me calling him a Nazi would be like me debating a red-piller and using the term "toxic masculinity." Or me talking about being a feminist. Even if they might be accurate, and I'll grant you, given Nick's ideal policy positions, [...] probably would be a Nazi , sure, or close enough to it that I'd feel comfortable calling him a Nazi. But that word has been so soyafied, has been so drug through the dirt that it has lost all meaning and it instantly signals me as being an outsider loser that has no capability of understanding what they think. So there are certain words that I don't touch anymore because people have destroyed the meaning of those words. Nazi, fascist, toxic masculinity, feminism, pro-trans ally, whatever, I just don't touch these words anymore because they're fucked.

Me: Okay, I think that this is a problem. Because SJWs have overused that word, right? And conservatives have overused the word SJW. These are all terms that we don't want to touch because they're lame and they discredit you. But we're in this environment of like, algorithmically charged, psychologically manipulative content. This content feeding machine that does advance bad ideas over good ideas. [...] I agree with you in an ideal, like ancient Greece, we're all sitting around a table talking about ideas, then yeah, maybe good ideas win. But that's not where we are. We know that fake news spreads faster than real news, because it's more psychologically gratifying and emotionally evocative. And then the way it's delivered with the social media algorithms multiplies that by a billion. We have these social media companies complaining about Andrew Tate, banning him when they made him.

Destiny: I disagree with both of those concepts. Just, so real quick, I used to believe this. I think that good ideas can win. But I think people felt like they don't have to fight for them anymore and they should be provided self-evidently. So when we look at things like [...] misinformation spread[ing] faster than information. I think the reason why is because I think the people that spread misinformation do a fuck ton of work to dress it up in highly lucrative ways. They work so much on their messaging, they work so much on undermining established messaging, they work so hard on presenting their ideas in the best way possible. And people that are in charge of disseminating true information basically paste it out size font 10 Times New Roman, boring as fuck, here it is, if you don't believe it we're gonna ban you from everything, call you a Nazi, and tell you that you're not allowed to talk to anybody. That's what it feels like to me. So I don't feel like the algorithm and everything else incentivize fake news or whatever, it feels that way. But it's because those people are playing on the algorithms more than people on the other side. And I think that that needs to change.

Me: Okay, I accept your disagreement there. I still believe what I said. But I mean, even right now, your channel's going through unprecedented growth, right? And Fuentes is in all your thumbnails and recent videos. And Google is pushing that. These are people, I assume most of them, [who] are getting these videos recommended to them. So Google says, "We're gonna ban this guy, his rhetoric is so harmful. But if he's on this other guy's channel, we'll blast it out to the entire fucking universe. And look at all the money we're making." So I'm just trying to paint this kind of broader picture of the tools that we have to argue against genocide as an idea, or a plan, have been wasted by people like Aiko using them on me, [...] or you, anybody else they find remotely offensive. So now we're not allowed to use those tools of rhetoric to push back, because even the act of pushing back makes you look like a loser. And then the humor thing allows you guys to joke back and forth, like [...] he's saying "You can't have kids with Melina because how are you going to know who the parent is" or something, and then you're like, "Yeah, she belongs to the street, right?" And he's making fun of your wife, and then you're making fun of your wife. Because that's what we do. Like as funny progressive-ish people, we make fun of our own group. But Nick Fuentes doesn't do that. He also makes fun of your group.

[...]

Destiny: Okay, what are your prescriptions? Tell me your prescriptions.

Me: Okay. Do not let him or your audience for a second forget who Nick Fuentes is, and the fact that he said explicitly, "I'm going to pretend I'm more moderate than I really am" makes it so that you actually need to work harder to remind them of who he is, what he's done, and what he said. And you're not doing that, you're doing the opposite of that–

Destiny: How can I do that in a way that [...] isn't soy as fuck?

ChudLogic: Well, this is the problem that we're getting at, [...] you're gonna have to dip into a bit of soy sometimes, I don't know how else to suggest it.

Destiny: Then that can be people like your guys' jobs, the people that are making the posts on my subreddit like "Just to remind you guys, Nick is a Nazi!" [...] I don't want to be soy. Because if I'm soy, I lose all credibility. I can't be soy. That's the whole point of what I'm doing.

Me: That is why he is targeting you.

Destiny: Sure. And it's why I'm able to talk to him.

Me: I understand that, but the path for Fuentes, or a Fuentes clone, to becoming an actual dictator, leader of this country is through people who enable them, who do not stop them, who amplify them and who are afraid to look soy and tell them no. [...] The last person, the person who's come the closest to becoming a dictator of this country is Trump, and he did it by fucking half-ironically memeing his way into the White House with semi-racist semi-ironic jokes. Always plausible deniability, always saying, "Oh, I didn't mean–I was just joking."

Destiny: Couldn't you argue that in the beginning with Trump, people tried your strategy? Wasn't Trump almost universally chided? Universally ignored? Universally panned by media?

Me: I didn't say you should ignore him and I didn't say you should chide him. [...] If you want a fucking playbook, look at my talk with Richard Spencer. I was friendly with him, I liked him, we got along, we had a good conversation, we were cordial. We had a ton of ideas exchanged between us–but I did say every few minutes "I think your ideas are abhorrant." [...]

ChudLogic: Didn't you get relentlessly shat on for that content, though? People said that was shit, didn't they?

[...]

Me: I'm not giving you a prescription for not getting criticized.

Destiny: I feel like when I'm talking to Nick, I feel like I bring these things up pretty often. Maybe I'd have to go back and check and it's not as often as I think, but I feel like I'm constantly [inaudible] like, "Eh, you are kind of a white supremacist. Or, "Eh, you know, you do believe some pretty weird fucking things about Jewish people." I feel like I say this quite often.

Me: Do you remember when Trump said Kim Jong-un was his friend?

Destiny: Yes.

Me: That was bad.

Destiny: Yes.

[...]

Me: [...] You're asking me my prescription. Don't tell me that you don't see the difference between me having a very structured careful interview conversation with Richard Spencer about his beliefs and contrasting them to mine, and going out for fucking chicken and waffles with him with Shaelin. [...] When you interview Jeffrey Dahmer, you don't go out for chicken and waffles with him afterward.

ChudLogic: The problem is the broadcast of the dinner. That's the issue at hand, right?

Me: I would say even having the dinner or broadcasting the fact of the dinner. But I mean, yeah, if people are saying like, "Oh, like Steven can be friends with whoever he wants," but it has different meaning when you're friends with somebody–[...] when the channel is friends with them.

[...]

Me: You said that you will call him a Nazi in some circumstances, and not in other circumstances. I believe that this provides cover for him because you're saying "He's sort of a Nazi, he's sort of not a Nazi. It's kind of a joke that I call him a Nazi. It's kind of not a joke but I'll also non-jokingly say he's a Nazi." And it is through this blurriness and confusion of how you–and then you're saying I don't even know what a Nazi is. But then you're saying he is a Nazi on Twitter. You do know what a Nazi is. A Nazi is a fascistic person who wants to commit genocide against Jews and others. That's a Nazi, and you're willing to say that he is a Nazi. So again, you have your impressionable audience who believes they're not impressionable, which makes them more impressionable, and you're giving them mixed messages and confusing, blurry definitions. And that's exactly what Fuentes wants. He wants people to know he's a Nazi, because he is a Nazi, but he also wants plausible deniability. He wants it to seem like a joke, but also to have the people who want it to not be a joke feel comfortable knowing that it's not really a joke. That's exactly what he wants, and you're providing him the exact political environment and platform that he needs to spread that message to as many people as possible.

Destiny: Okay, I agree with you that joking about the Nazi thing and everything provides cover for him. That is absolutely true. The problem is, I'm not the one providing that cover. The left did it by destroying the word Nazi, that the destruction of these terms to accurately describe people's political ideologies has actually rendered them useless, such that when a normal American hears somebody on the left call somebody a fascist or Nazi, that word means nothing. Just like how if you call somebody a rapist, that word means nothing. Just like how if you call somebody a racist, or a transphobic person, these words mean nothing. Because these words have been watered down and destroyed so much, the people that actually have these beliefs are now given perfect cover, because it's impossible to use those words to describe what they are. [...] So when I joke about there being like, Nazi stuff, or I joke about it–that's, in a way, it's sort of my way of saying I get it, and I understand your frustration, sometimes with being labeled a Nazi, not speaking to Nick, but maybe people underneath him. That like, yeah, I can joke about this, you're a Nazi, you're a fascist, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. There is a little bit of a joke there, because the words themselves have become almost meaningless. But my goal when I have those conversations with him is to pierce the veil, and not attack him for being a Nazi, or not attack him for being a fascist, but attack him for having bad takes related to race realism, or immigration, or foreign policy. Because these are the things that I want to hit on that are actually bad. Because rather than just calling him a word that could mean anything, because that cover is always going to be there–not because of me, but because of what's happened societally–I would rather go after the specific positions themselves and hammer on that because I'm there, I can stand on rock solid ground, and none of those positions have been poisoned or tainted by progressives because they're not having those conversations.

Me: Okay. I would like to respond.

Destiny: Okay, I'll just write it down as you go. Just responding to what you said.

Me: Calling people Nazis who are not Nazis is Holocaust denial. But so is not calling people Nazis who are Nazis. They're both Holocaust denial. In one we're saying everybody's a Nazi blah, blah, we're kind of [muddying] the waters and making it meaningless like you've said, and [in] the other, we're basically saying Nazism isn't real. It doesn't exist. It can't come back or it hasn't lingered. And I'm very against both of these things. This person wants to kill me, Fuentes wants to kill me and my family, wants to kill your friends, wants to kill my friends, wants to kill Chud's friends, wants to kill people. And I think we need the word Nazi. And I agree with you that the left has watered down the word and inadvertently provided cover for Nazis, for real Nazis, absolutely. They shouldn't have done that. And I think that social media platforms are amplifying Nick Fuentes right now. YouTube is amplifying him through you. I don't think they should be doing that. I think that they shouldn't amplify Andrew Tate, same thing. Shouldn't amplify him and then say that the solution to us algorithmically supercharging bad ideas is that we just have to then ban the person. That doesn't make any–they're not taking any responsibility. The left is not taking any responsibility for this. The right–conservatives are–you're not going to see Steven Crowder calling out Nick Fuentes. I don't think he has, but I don't see a broad calling out of this kind of bad behavior from conservatives, or like, you know, fucking treason. Right? Nobody is taking responsibility. And I hear what you're saying, you're saying, "Well, the left did it. It's not me. I'm just little old Steven, you know, and I understand that position. And if I could have an audience with the CEO of YouTube, I would be saying this shit to her instead of you." But I think even though it's not–it shouldn't fall just to you. But I think it does.

Destiny: Okay, I agree that it's nice to have words to describe what people are, but unfortunately, in our wonderful post-truth society, all of those words have been lost. I don't think any of these words mean anything anymore. To say what I said earlier, if somebody tells me that like, "Oh, that guy's a rapist," it literally means nothing to me. I don't know what that means anymore.

[...]

Me: My problem, again, and I don't feel like you're really addressing this, is that you do use the word Nazi sometimes. So, if you just never use the word that would be fine. The problem is that when you use it sometimes, and then you use it jokingly, and then you also say he's not a Nazi, you provide a blurry cover of confusion for him to operate in, which is the exact thing that he needs and wants.

Destiny: Yeah, we're retreading on this and I'll reiterate my [inaudible] and then you can go back again, if you want, I guess. I think the cover's already there because these words have been destroyed. So now I'm just playing with them the same way that everybody else has. These words mean nothing anymore.

Me: So if you never used the word, how would that provide cover for him?

Destiny: Because it already, everybody else on–all three of us in here have been called Nazis.

Me: How would you be providing cover for Nick Fuentes, if you said, "I have a policy against using that word. I never use it in any context because it's been destroyed. But I also don't want to contribute to providing cover for you by calling you a destroyed word. I just don't like the label."

Destiny: Sure, you could say that if you want. I don't care why it's–

Me: It's not true that the situation is forcing you to provide cover for him by using multiple different definitions of Nazi and saying he is a Nazi, saying he isn't a Nazi, and saying it jokingly. No one's making you do that.

Destiny: No one's making me do that, but the word is already destroyed. Me using it isn't destroying the word. It already is. It doesn't mean anything.

Me: No, the word has been destroyed by people using it irresponsibly. And now you're one of the people doing it.

Destiny: It's destroyed. It can't be undestroyed. It's never going to be brought back.

Me: If it's destroyed, then why use it at all?

Destiny: Because it's good for humor. It's funny, and sometimes it conveys some–it's a good moral hammer to show I don't like this person. That's what Nazi means. And in that sense, it works. [...] When I say Nazi is destroyed, I don't mean it has no purpose at all. Obviously, it works. You're a Nazi, oh, I don't like you. That's what it means. That's what it conveys.

Me: But that's not how you use it. You are against people using it that way. You think that people using it in that way is shitty and irresponsible, right? That's what you were just saying.

Destiny: Yeah, at this point, it doesn't matter.

Me: It does matter, it matters to me because he wants to kill me, Steven!

Destiny: I don't care if anyone wants to kill you. That's not relevant to this conversation.

Me: He wants to kill my family, and he wants to kill my friends! That's why it matters.

Destiny: Okay, that's cool. That doesn't matter. Using the word, not using the word.

Me: It's not cool. It's not cool.

Destiny: Then go complain to the people that ruined the word, that now can't be used effectively at all.

Me: You are ruining the word right now. I am complaining directly to you.

Destiny: If I never said it again, the amount of harm would not change about the word.

Me: How come when you're taken to task on this issue. You are saying it's the leftists' fault. I'm talking to you about your use of the word and you're saying, "You can't pin this on me because of how language works. What about different contexts being used and different things?" And then you're saying, "You can't pin it on me, I didn't do it first." I'm not saying you ruined the word. I agree with you. I agree with you about almost everything you're saying. The only thing I don't agree with you about is that you have some accountability. And you should take responsibility for the part you are playing in the fucking uprising of Nick Fuentes.

Destiny: Yeah, I take responsibility for the 0.0001% of ruining the word as well then, okay, I'll throw my lot in with that. Rather than me having to omit thirty words from my vocabulary because they can't be used anymore. Sure, I'll take responsibility for helping to water down all of these words.

Me: Do you see the gigachad thing that Chud is talking about in action right here? You're just like rolling your eyes at me.

Destiny: Okay. What's the next topic? We're too ideologically opposed on this and we're never going to come to an agreement. The reality is–

Me: We're not ideologically opposed.

Destiny: We are. These words are destroyed, they're never coming back. They've largely lost their impact in public discourse. The only thing they can exist for at this point are is fucking humor and random insults. And insofar as they exist in that vernacular, I'll use them as random humor or insults. If you're getting upset because you think I'm contributing to the destruction, they're already destroyed, they're gone. They're never coming back.

This went on for a long time. Not just the rest of that two-and-a-half hour stream, but for a few more streams throughout the week. I will include a few choice excerpts that stuck with me, but if you demand that Destiny take a position when he doesn't want to (and he usually doesn't), the conversation will go in circles until somebody leaves. The problem in this case was that his lack of a position, and the cover that gave to Fuentes, was the topic of the argument.

Chud brought on another orbiter, Rem the Bath Boi, who in turn suggested he bring Nick Fuentes onto the stream. Both Chud and I refused.

In a rare moment of vulnerability, Chud said, "I feel enslaved to content all of my fucking life, okay? And this was an opportunity to have a conversation that wasn't just about content. And yeah, there was a bit more to it, perhaps. And now again, I feel the pull to the content [...]. I hate to admit that, I feel soy for admitting that, I can't genuinely express how I feel sometimes."

I directly asked him how he was feeling about the conversation and about Destiny and Fuentes's relationship.

ChudLogic: [...] The way that Destiny has handled it has actually been pretty reasonable and pretty responsible. Now, I do share still the concerns about the chicken and waffles thing, sure, but I guess the problem I have there is even if I thought that was really bad, say, what's the outcome of that? What's the downside, or what's the issue that's going to come about as a result of it? I just don't know if there's a strong enough answer to oppose it on the basis that it's got some bad outcome, you know?

Me: It sounds like you're rationalizing keeping your feelings to yourself by saying, "If I can't prove that Fuentes is going to become the next Hitler, then I shouldn't say how it makes me feel to see him having chicken and waffles with Steven."

Chud explained that after he'd expressed his concerns, his audience had pressured him to justify his feelings.

Destiny said that neither he nor I would demand a justification and that he should speak his mind. I thought this was in stark contradiction to the past two hours of conversation where he'd made it clear he would call anyone a screeching leftist if they complained about his engagement with Fuentes. Destiny asked Chud, "Why can't you just tell us how you feel?"

After quite a bit of awkward stalling, Chud explained again that some of Destiny's community members had jumped down his throat when he said he was uncomfortable with Destiny's friendship with Fuentes on stream.

Increasingly cornered by Destiny's explicit encouragement to express his feelings and the implicit threat of a community dogpile, Chud said, "Okay, I guess my position is: what's the point in talking about the feelings of it? Because it doesn't make any difference to anything. What matters to me and what I'm thinking about is, what are the outcomes of this? What are the probable issues? And I just don't see any."

I don't know if I was encouraging Chud to confront Destiny for his own sake, or if I was projecting my growing rage at Destiny for his treatment of me and his monstrous selfishness–probably the second one–but I wouldn't let it go. I braced him. And because honest emotional expression had already been framed as the last defense against Nazism on YouTube, he had no escape. Or so I thought.

ChudLogic: Max, you've really pissed me off to be honest. You've really annoyed me. And you know, I just don't understand.

Me: How so?

ChudLogic: I feel like you've drilled into my brain and stuck your fingers in there and I'm like, why are you doing that, bro?

I explained that some friends appreciate it when I point out that they are hiding their feelings.

Looking back, I see that I ignored the glaring presence of the audience and the threat of provoking Destiny. When you're a Destiny orbiter, almost all of your audience is really his audience, and if you say the wrong thing he will snap his fingers and they will leave instantly–and try to hurt you on the way out. Maybe if I hadn't pressed him that final time, if I'd just let him vent to me about it during our next Halo session, we'd still be friends today.

ChudLogic: Okay, I figured this out. I figured it all out, okay? I know what the problem is. Right?

Destiny: What is the problem?

ChudLogic: Okay, Max you've helped me, thank you for that. I think the problem is that I feel like I've got to have a feeling that aligns with mrgirl, and some of the other people that have criticized this. But you know what? I don't actually feel that way about it at all. I actually feel like this looks like a kind of fun stream, and I think that this could probably actually do some good in terms of like–you know, I don't agree, I think, with this idea–I don't feel that we have to be as concerned as we have been about some of this stuff. And I think that because I've come to you Max and I've said I feel worried about this, but then upon looking at it, I'm like, "Okay, actually, this seems fine." And actually some of this seems kind of okay, and fun, and probably a good thing.

I actually believed him.

It's funny–Destiny says now that I have narcissistic personality disorder. It's the only way he can explain why I'd turn down all that money and power by coming forward as his abuse victim.

In my early public statements about my investigation, I said I thought it would take me about a month to write this piece.

Sometimes, in the middle of the night when I'm writing (it's 5:13 a.m. at the moment), and my hands and wrists are burning and my herniated disc is aching, I ask myself–what would I have done if I'd known? That it would take not four weeks, but four months. That I would lose over half of my income. That I would be doxed by a crazed Destiny fan who would match interior photos of my house to rental listings in my city? That I'd get death threats, and that Chud would allow his editor to publicly say he hopes Shaelin gets murdered? That someone would reply to one of my father's tweets with a picture of me naked? That Destiny would publicly state that he doesn't care about any harassment I receive from his community, and then mock Shaelin and me for being afraid to sleep at night?

It took me two months to decide that Chud was lying–and stabbing me in the back–because I'm very, very naive.

That first debate was uploaded to Destiny's YouTube channel with the title: "Destiny Defends Himself In HEATED 3v1 Debate, Wins Over Debate Opponent."

After the stream, someone made a post on Destiny's subreddit, titled "God damn Steven has contradicted himself so many times in his debate with Max and Chud. This is painful"

In the debate just now, when Chud and Max (mostly max) debated him on the stabilization of Nick, it seems like Steven is just trying to defend himself without being able to being critical of himself at all.

This is most prevalent with how contradictory he is in this debate.

In the span of like 10 minutes he says things like “I never said Nick isn’t a Nazi” and “Well, if you separate every view he has, he is close enough to be a called a Nazi” and also says “Well, I don’t believe someone can hide his true feelings for half a decade without changing his beliefs” within the context of him not saying explicitly Nazi shit for a few years so he isn’t a Nazi anymore.

This has been going on all debate. It’s almost gaslighting.

This is exactly what Max is talking about. Being all blurry with what you say about Nicks beliefs.

Max is 100% correct with his assessment here. Literally every statement said by Max is correct while Steven is being so weasely..

[...]

Edit - After reading one of the comments here, I would like to add that a huge problem is that basically the only times Steven says Nick is a Nazi is as a joke towards Nick (Steven admits this in this conversation). This is outwardly implying to people that Steven doesn’t actually think that Nick is a Nazi, which is the problem with sanitization that Max is talking about.

(788 upvotes)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/wyrpb4/god_damn_steven_has_contradicted_himself_so_many/?sort=top

The top comment was a joke, but the second-to-top said this:

I hate to say it, but I actually think the main reason why Steven is acting this way isn’t because it’s a good way to engage with Nick’s audience or whatever, but because it is fun for him and because there won’t be true negative impact if more people like Nick arrive through Steven’s actions.

Max is right when he said “Nick wants to kill ME and MY family”. Steven doesn’t feel as impacted because even in an authoritarian christian country via Nicks ideology, Steven will be A-OK. He cares in an intellectual context, but nothing further. People like Max (and me) care, because if Nazis will come back, we will be sent to gas chambers like our grandparents families.

(247 upvotes)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/wyrpb4/comment/ilyi6gi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Destiny removed the post.

On August 28, 2022, I messaged Destiny, horrified. (This is my half of our conversation–Destiny deleted all of his DMs to me when he found out I was coming forward about him.)

Steven, you (or your mods) removed the thread giving you the most pushback about our argument, with 700 upvotes.

How does that fit with "good ideas win," or you saying that you are willing to hear feedback about this?

Why was it removed?

Lol Jesus Christ man.

That is not really an explanation and further adds to my point that you are resistant to pushback about this.

And in the process you are providing more cover for Fuentes by altering the narrative/conversation in your community.

That is an ad hom, but it's like 1% of the post, and deleting it (and the entire conversation) because it pissed you off clearly has the effect of making it seem like your community is friendlier to Fuentes and your arguments than they are.

Okay so people can push back against your ideas but if they whine then you remove it.

I think the more people disagree with you, the more likely they are to be upset and say something annoying in the process.

It is disturbing to me to hear you say "if he steals my audience I hope they go march in the fourth reich," implying that there will be a fair battle in the marketplace of ideas, and then you remove the gigantic thread of pushback because it annoyed you.

Shit man, I'm even afraid to give you too much pushback because I don't really know how you'll take it.

There is a contradiction there. The marketplace of ideas != the marketplace of ideas as long as there isn't an ad hom.

I am trying to act in good faith.

There is obviously no actual rule since you just reinstated the post and acknowledged that it is

in fact based on your mood.

And you can claim that your emotional response was to the ad hom, and not the 700 upvotes attacking your argument, but who knows?

You deleted the main thread disagreeing with you and said it's because you felt like it! Me pushing back on that is not me arguing for "infinite free speech."

How can you possibly defend this as maintaining a fair marketplace of ideas?

Your subreddit is used by your community to check the temperature on certain topics. It is expected that if people violate TOS or say things you find abhorrent that you might delete it.

Saying "Steven is being so weasely" as part of a broad critique of your half of an argument is clearly not something your viewers would expect you to delete, and by doing so you are actually paving the way for Fuentes to gain unchecked popularity--because you find pushback annoying, and if you get annoyed you delete the pushback.

He invited me to discuss it on stream. I thought he was finally taking some accountability.

Now I think he found a way to exploit my pain for money.

I joined the stream and confronted him, reading aloud the subreddit post he'd deleted.

Destiny: The way that I generally run my community is, I'm pretty open to criticism and feedback for most things. But when people make it weirdly personal, I generally always delete those threads. Somebody has something good to say or something critical to say, generally okay with that. When a threat is called like, "God damn, Destiny is being so contradictory and he's being weaselly." Usually for those I just delete it. There's plenty of people in my sub that push back and give lots of criticism. They do it, they don't get banned, it's fine. But more often than not it's usually people typing shit like, "I just think that he's been weaselly and he's not even trying to engage in good faith," it's like there's no good criticism here. This is trash. And I usually just wiped those threads or ban those people.

Me: After me reading that back to you, do you think there is no good criticism in that thread?

Destiny: There might be but he could have written it a lot better.

Me: Okay. Do you concede–or, here, I think this, you let me know what you think. The more horrifying people find you or your conduct or your ideas, the more emotionally they're going to react to it.

Destiny: Possibly, but I don't have to tolerate that emotion reaction.

Me: You do if you want pushback, because while you and I may be able to keep the rhetorical cool and talk to somebody who wants to kill us [...] or do whatever horrible thing, we can keep our cool and say, "Okay, I'm gonna engage with your ideas, I'm not going to freak out." Most people, when they get really upset by something that they see happening, especially if they have a parasocial relationship with you, or if they're a fan of yours, or they're invested in your work, they're gonna get upset at the same time. And while I'm not saying that you should tolerate people threatening you or harassing you, or even maybe being extremely insulting–I tolerate that in my community, but you don't have to–I certainly think that saying you are being weaselly in a conversation, while that does have negative connotations, it is also a descriptor of your behavior in the debate. And I just think deleting the whole thing and justifying it as saying that that's an ad hom and that if you tolerate that you'd have to tolerate any amount of abuse from your community. just shows that you are emotionally compromised on this. You're not up for hearing real pushback that would actually really matter and change the narrative here. And by deleting it, you are tipping the scales.

Destiny: I disagree. "God damn, Steven has contradicted himself. This is painful. It seems like he's trying to defend himself without being critical at all. It's almost gaslighting." [...] This isn't good criticism. This is emotional bait–

Me: If he thinks you're gaslighting me, what do you want him to say?

Destiny: If he thinks I'm gaslighting [you] then I don't ever want them in my community posting. If you're going to use the term gaslighting to describe a fucking internet debate, while being that emotional in posts, then go post somewhere else. I don't want you posting in my subreddit. That's exactly why I ban those types of people–

Me: There's a new rule in your subreddit that no one is allowed to tell you that you're gaslighting.

Destiny: It's not a new rule on my subreddit, when people make–

Me: It's [an] old rule!

Destiny: Yeah [...] that's why there's a comment with like two hundred upvotes where the guy's like, "o7." If you're making a post and you're like, "Destiny is a bad faith gaslighter" or "He's weaselly," it's like bro, you're not engaging critically with any of the material at all. And the only thing posts like that invite are other people to be like "Yeah, Destiny is a fucking asshole piece of shit," it's like bro, there's no engagement here. There's not a good engagement with anything that's actually being said."

Me: Okay, "In a span of ten minutes he says things like, 'I never said Nick isn't a Nazi,' and 'Well, he is close enough to be called a Nazi,' and 'I don't believe someone can hide his true feelings for half a decade without changing his beliefs.' And then they describe that series of statements all being made in ten minutes as gaslighting.

Destiny: Yeah, but they remove the context from every single statement.

Me: Well, that's fine, you can push back against it, but like–

Destiny: No, that's not fine, if that's his engagement–I just don't want somebody like this ever posting in my community. He's just a dumb fuck.

[...]

Me: I think Nick is doing to you what you're doing to me right now.

Destiny: What is that?

One of the black YouTubers who'd been on the August 17 panel with Fuentes, JiDion, joined the stream. His YouTube channel currently sits at 6.55 million subscribers. For scale, Destiny is at 640,000. I was at around 40,000 (I've since been banned).

He and I introduced ourselves, and I continued to argue with Destiny.

Me: What you're doing to me is you are creating confusion around the definition of words, or what we're even talking about. Everything is spiraling off into different sides, and at the end of the conversation nobody knows what you really think about Fuentes, or Nazism, or what a Nazi is. And you've created a bunch of tangentially related micro arguments that you can win, you set up and you win them really quickly–and so if you look at the scoreboard, I'm losing by a lot because you've won like 900 arguments, but there's only one or two that I'm trying to have with you. One is, do we need the word Nazi? And two is?, do you have the power to define that word for your audience? And I don't think you've really answered either of those questions. So you won 900 arguments, but the two that we're having, you've evaded. And I think Nick is doing the same thing to you. He becomes–yes, box shadows. That's the whole point. Because he's not welcome in the daylight. I wish he were. I wish that YouTube would let a Nazi come on and say "I'm a Nazi, and I want to kill all the Jews." And then we would, know we wouldn't have to just say, "Well, based on everything you've said, I have this big chart of every data point of everything you've ever said, and I've determined that statistically speaking, it's an impossibility that you're not a Nazi. You have to be a Nazi given what you've said.

Aba joined the stream.

Destiny: So here's why I disagree. You say that I'm creating confusion around the definition of words and what we're talking about? I disagree. I wish I could go back to the conversation. I think it might have been a lot of people here–I think it was like Fuentes, Abba, JD. And I think Don, snicko and a couple other people in that room. And I think at some point, people were literally asking, like, "Oh, my god, like, aren't you a Nazi or whatever?" And Nick is very easily able to weasel around that word, because who the fuck even knows what Nazi means? And he did it pretty effectively. And I think it wasn't until I stepped in and I started asking specific questions like, "Do you think white people and black people having children is degenerate?" Once specific questions like that start coming out, it's a lot harder for him to get away from that than from me going, "Aren't you a Nazi who believes in racial hierarchical structures?" "Well, you know, I mean, is there a racial hierarchy? I don't know if I'd say that, like white people are different than black people who are different than Asian people. And they should bla bla bla bla bla," like, using this word Nazi.

Me: But that's what you're doing. That's what you're doing now.

Destiny: Hold on, wait, wait, wait, no, no. Anytime you ramble, I'm gonna ramble. So I just wrote down everything you said, so I'm responding to everything you said, okay? I'm not the one creating the confusion. I think I'm the one that's looking for clarity by having real conversations about the real ideas and the real policy positions, not hanging on to a word and trying to bring it in and make everything fit like, "Is he a Nazi, or–" I don't care about that. I don't want somebody to dislike somebody because they're a Nazi.

Me: This ain't about disliking him, bro.

Destiny: Stop, let me finish. Okay, if somebody doesn't like somebody or somebody doesn't like their policies or thinks they're evil, I want it to be because they know specifically where that person stands on certain moral or political issues. Right? That guy's a Nazi. Okay, I don't know anything about that. That guy is opposed to miscegeny, he doesn't think that interracial marriages should happen, and he thinks gay people should be killed. Okay, those are strong positions that–I don't think I would like that person. I prefer the latter to the former because in this media environment when somebody says Nazi that word means fucking nothing, okay? When you say this–

Me: Okay–

Destiny: Hold on–I've gotta–if you want to go granular, we can go, but when you ramble a lot, I'm gonna ramble a lot.

Me: This isn't granular, you're just fucking–you're gaslighting me. You're gaslighting me.

Destiny: You can look at my stream. I literally wrote down everything you said and I'm responding point by point.

Me: I know. You have a list of things to not respond to.

Destiny: No, I'm writing down everything you're saying, if you want to talk a lot, I have to–okay, so you said nobody really knows what [I] think. Everybody knows exactly what I think. They might not know, I guess, my precise definition of the word Nazi, but they know where I stand on the moral issues. They know where I stand on the policy issues. And when I argue with somebody they know where they stand on the moral issues or policy issues. And that's more important than whether or not we all agree on what the word Nazi or fascist means and if we've applied the label correctly, because who the fuck cares? And then when you say–

Me: I care. Obviously I care.

Destiny: [When you say I'm] creating confusion around the definition of words [and] what we're talking about–wrong. Bringing in those words, I think, is what creates the confusion. I think that I'm providing clarity by focusing on the actual subject matter and not focusing on trying to use the words. When you say nobody really knows what [I] think, or I'm just creating micro arguments–everybody knows what I think. They might just not know how I apply a really broad word like fascist or communist or whatever., but they know very precisely or specifically where I stand on a given issue that we're talking about. When you say, "Do we need the word Nazi?" I wish we had words like that, that were highly descriptive, but all of them have been destroyed. And I've said it a million times–Nazi, pedophile, racist, rapist, transphobic–I don't know what any of those words–

Me: We absolutely need these words,

Destiny: But they're gone now. They're already gone, we've lost them.

Me: No, they're not gone, you use them frequently.

Destiny: When you said, "Do you have the power to define that word to your audience?" I kind of do, but when I use them, I have to define them every time and it's frustrating, but I do it.

Me: Yes, you do.

Destiny: I do that–I'll say like, "Man, this guy is like transphobic, and when I say transphobic, like I mean he actually wants to get rid of HRT," I gotta define it every time which shows that the words are destroyed. And then when you say he becomes shadows, he's not welcome in the daylight–the way that he remains a shadow is by trying to use the word Nazi instead of bringing him out and exposing his particular positions. Okay, if you want to go point by point we can, but I'm writing down as you speak, and if you speak a lot, I will respond a lot. Okay, go ahead.

Me: [...] I think you're literally gaslighting me. These are not the points I'm making. You're not responding to the points I'm making. You're setting up straw man after straw man.

Destiny: I'm writing down your exact words.

Me: No, you're responding to things like, "Oh, I don't think we should not like somebody because of a label." I didn't fucking say that. That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, obviously.

Destiny: Okay, ask me a–

Me: Then you said you, "I think it's more important to engage with his positions than it is to call him a Nazi." I didn't say it wasn't. I'm not saying one is more important than the other and they're not mutually exclusive. Another fucking false dichotomy that you smuggled in in your response as though that's what I said. I didn't say any of the shit you're responding to. My message is very clear, and I'm gonna have to end up repeating myself over and over until you either make it clear you're just not gonna respond, or respond.

Destiny: Just give me the specific–okay, hold on, don't–give me the specific question. I will write it down word for word and I will respond to it. Give me the specific question. What is your specific point that you think I'm evading or avoiding?

Me: Two things. One is that I think we need the word Nazi, and given that you use it and protest about the way it is used, I think you also think we need to use the word. [...] You're telling story after story of yourself using the word, arguing against other people using the word, and arguing over the definition of the word. So it seems like usually you're in agreement with me about the fact that this word should be used explicitly to describe people who fit your and my definition Nazi, which I believe [are] pretty similar. So, except when it comes to Nick Fuentes you say, "Who cares? I don't care about that word. I don't care about calling people Nazi." Well, then why can't I call Bush a Nazi? If you don't care about who's a Nazi and who isn't, then why can't I call Bush? Then when I ask you is Nick Fuentes a Nazi, you say five hundred words in response. It's a yes, no, or I don't know, or I don't know yet. But you have interrogated him about his policy positions for weeks or months or years? You have your own definition of Nazi, so why can't you make a determination? Like, isn't it kind of weird that you don't know if he's a Nazi at this point?

Destiny: I already gave you an answer to that. But when you ask me, "Is he a Nazi?" That's a very simple sentence. Do you understand that there's a lot of–

Me: Yes.

Destiny: Okay, well, the actual answer definitionally to your question is a resounding no. If you want to play hardcore, he's not a national socialist. So the answer is no.

Me: No, no, by your definition–

Destiny: Okay, well, now hold on–

Me: When you say "the actual definition," are you now smuggling in a new definition that you can hide behind instead of yours?

Destiny: Well, no. If you want to be–

Me: In your definition of Nazi, is Nick Fuentes a Nazi?

Destiny: Hold on, stop. If you want to be ultra fucking one hundred percent we go with the dictionary–does he belong to the National Socialist Party of Germany? No. Do you want to ask me if he's a neo Nazi? Or if he belongs to a neo Nazi party? What I'm trying to make you understand is that you feel like your questions are simple and demand simple answers, but they're not.

Me: Yes.

Destiny: But the words are–everything in these statements is incredibly complicated and loaded.

Me: There's two sides of this question. One is, what do you think Nick Fuentes believes? And the other is, what do you think is it a Nazi? And I'm asking you if the two things line up. That's it. And it's a mystery what Nick Fuentes truly believes because he won't say what he truly believes. He's dodgy and evasive.

Destiny: It doesn't matter if he says what he truly believes, I can fight him on what he says. And those are the things that we'll fight about. You can't live–

Me: That's not–you are changing the frame of what I'm asking you. There are two sides to this question.

Destiny: I don't care about the second side. That's the point. I don't care about what a Nazi is.

[...]

Destiny: These are inductions, and I don't gain anything by engaging in this level of induction–

Me: I'm not talking about what you gain from it. This is a moral imperative that I'm saying you have.

Destiny: Hold on, it's not a moral imperative, we're talking about language here.

Me: Obviously, my claim is that you have a moral imperative to answer these questions, and to know the answers to these questions for yourself, and to make them clear publicly. And you have a moral imperative to take pushback from your audience when you are risking transferring wealth and power to a literal Nazi. When you are taking that risk, I believe you have a moral imperative to get over your fucking feelings being hurt by somebody calling you weaselly in an argument and not delete a towering criticism of you from your community with five hundred fucking upvotes. I think you have a moral imperative to not do that. So I'm not saying you're gonna gain anything from following my advice. In fact, I can almost guarantee you that your personal gain will be best served by you befriending Nazis and platforming them. As long as you don't get banned, it makes you sexy, it makes you dangerous, it gives you access to a whole group of people who secretly have Nazi beliefs and are going to feel warm and want to join your community. For that it will broaden your horizons in a way that cozying up to the left never could.

Aba told me he agreed with Destiny, and, laughing, asked me if the word Nazi sends a shiver down my spine. He said he would bet $100,000 that if he asked people on the street to define "Nazi" they would give incoherent answers.

I countered that internet debaters who use the word all the time are more confused about its meaning than normal people.

Me: If you walk up to somebody on the street, and you say, [...] "When I say the word Nazi, and you have to name one person, who is that person?"

Destiny: Hitler.

Me: The answer's Adolf Hitler. And that is a great comparison, because he believes the same thing that Nick believes. And in fact, Nick said on a Twitter space one month ago that your community is like a group of autists that have decided to embrace being gay instead of embracing Hitler.

Destiny: Is that supposed to have like a big emotional impact on me, or?

Me: No, it's supposed to have a big emotional impact on your audience, that it doesn't have an emotional impact on you. It's supposed to show you, JiDion, and Aba's audience, anybody who's watching, that you guys are not equipped to deal with this. You don't know what the fuck you're doing. He is a sophisticated political operator who's convinced you that he is just a sweet little innocent incel blah, blah, blah, and you think your $100,000 in your bank account and you being able to walk around and say "Oh, if I ask ten people on the street" like you know everything, and you know the political climate of this country, and you say "Oh, he's not like he's gonna go to Hitler," you don't know anything about Hitler's rise to power. You don't know where Hitler was two years or three years or four years before he became dictator of the country. He was sitting in a jail cell embarrassed and alone with no party to speak of after committing an act just like the January 6 insurrection. But you guys don't know that. You are so in over your fucking heads that when I tell you Steven has let this man who wants to kill you and kill your family into your living rooms, your response is to say, "Oh, well then why did you call him a Nazi? I object to that–" You don't fucking care. You don't care.

(My Hitler timeline was wrong–he was named Führer ten years after his prison stint.)

JiDion: You know, mrgirl, I'm not gonna lie. Like, if everything you're saying is true, and he's gonna be like the next Hitler, you know, maybe just deplatforming is not the only option. Sounds like you want to go to war–

Me: No, I don't want to go to war. No, bro, I don't want to go to war. I want you to be informed about who your new buddy is.

JiDion: You're saying that he could be the next Hitler. Bro, he's not my buddy.

Me: A lot of people could be the next Hitler, but he is the only person I know of who has–

JiDion: Bro, you're gonna have to go get a strap and go have a 1v1 with Nick in Nuketown.

("Nuketown" is an popular gunfight arena in the Call of Duty series, but his meaning is that I should shoot Nick Fuentes in real life.)

Aba: I think as a Jew, that is your responsibility to save your people.

Me: Why is that, Aba?

Aba: I mean, considering the history–I'm just saying, considering the history, I'm just saying.

Me: Aba, you can play the race card if you want, but there's a lot more of your people in this country than there are of mine.

Destiny [laughing]: Turn the temperature down. Can we turn the temperature this conversation way the fuck out, okay?

Me: No, no, no, I don't want to turn the temperature down. Aba, if you think that a Nazi growing in power in this country is a Jew problem and not a black problem, you are out of your fucking mind. This country is point-five percent Jewish and fourteen percent black.

Aba: Yeah, but I'm just saying you feel really pressed about it. I don't feel as extreme about it as you do.

Me: That's because you're naive.

Aba went on to tell me that he can't stand me or how I speak, and that if I believe in my message, the morally good thing to do would be to grow my platform. When I asked why he was criticizing my rhetoric instead of Destiny's platforming of Fuentes, he said that he'd spoken to him about it in private.

I called him spineless for using the same ironic humor I've been talking about to avoid sharing his true feelings about Destiny and Fuentes.

Later, after Aba left, JiDion asked me to rap for him. I rapped the opening lines of one of my songs, thinking maybe we could at least bond over that.

Destiny was doubled over laughing–at me. One of my fans reprimanded me like a disappointed mother afterwards. They're bullying you, they said. Destiny brought on two bullies to fuck with you because he didn't have an answer to anything you were saying. Don't rap for them.

Being bullied is indeed embarrassing, and admitting it's happening is embarrassing. But I was being bullied by Destiny, and had been for eight months.

I couldn't let it go. Or I couldn't let Destiny go. But I could see that, unless I could change his mind, I was going to have to distance myself from him, and soon.

The next day, August 29, Destiny streamed his dismayed reaction to the state of his subreddit. While Destiny's fans will criticize his most vicious comments, it's unusual for the subreddit to side against him in a debate–especially a debate about how he handles his platform.

Destiny: Let me start off by saying I like mrgirl, we're friends. I appreciate pushback, even though I apparently don't like criticism or whatever. So yesterday in the conversation with him, I'm pretty sure he talked for eighty percent of the time, number one. Also, he accused me multiple times of being bad faith, and dishonest, and cowardly, even though I'll bring him on as many times he wants to have the conversation, okay? And then he also accused me like ten times of gaslighting. What the fuck. I'm like, I'm trying so hard to write down–like bro, I'm writing down everything you're saying, and I'm asking is it okay if I say–And then I'm letting him talk for like five to ten minutes–not ten minutes–but I'm letting him talk for like five minutes and then I try to talk for like twenty seconds and then I get cut off, and he calls me cowardly for not answering the question, it's like "bro, I can't even speak." And then people are coming to my subreddit–"when Destiny doesn't know how to respond, he just obfuscates."

This is one of the first times that Destiny described my fans as an alien presence. I'm still a relatively small creator, but prior to meeting Destiny, I was microscopic. At that time, just eight months after my first stream with him, almost all of my fans were still his fans. There was (and still isn't) absolutely no way for my fanbase to elevate a criticism of Destiny with hundreds of upvotes. My arguments about Fuentes were undeniably resonating with his community.

The post he'd removed and then reinstated the previous day, with over 700 upvotes, was written by a Destiny fan. He's written 40 posts about random topics in r/Destiny since January 2022 (his most recent being 4 hours ago) and has never posted in my subreddit.

The post accusing Destiny of obfuscation was written by a user who has made 71 comments since December 2021, most of which paint Destiny in a neutral or positive light, and has never commented or posted in my subreddit.

Destiny was not really describing an invasion of my fans into his subreddit, but rather initiating an expulsion.

"When Destiny doesn't know how to respond he just obfuscates"

This has been bothering me for a little while now and it surfaced again during the conversation with MrGirl and right afterwards. Max is really pushing Destiny up against the wall regarding whether Destiny regards Nick to be Nazi or not, and then all of the sudden the world becomes so complicated.

Suddenly out comes a philosophy of language conversation where if only Max could understand that language is in the eyes of the beholder, all would be solved. Suddenly the legitimate disagreement has faded away and Max just doesn't understand the complexity of the world. With this type of thinking how do all the strong political statements that Destiny has previously made square up at all?

The reality is it doesn't matter that the word Nazi is a very complicated word at all, because Max is asking Destiny to tell him what Destiny thinks of the word in relation to Nick Fuentes in this context. I understand that Destiny doesn't want to call Nick either a Nazi or not a Nazi, because either way makes him look bad either to himself and some of his audience or future journalists digging into his old content. He should just explain this or say no comment or something. But he didn't know what to say or think so he soothed himself by hyper focusing on how complicated the word "Nazi" is.

It's not just this example, it's very often that Destiny will get on the back foot and then just continually obfuscate about how complicated the world is to make himself feel better. It's a weak debate tactic that I regard to be intellectually lacking.

Love the content!

(687 upvotes)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/x0inw0/when_destiny_doesnt_know_how_to_respond_he_just/

This post was removed by mods, and then the user deleted it from their history:

"Say what you want about mrgirl’s positions…"

…but it’s kinda frustrating to see him try to engage in earnest on an issue he, personally, views as possibly existential while Aba and JiDion just meme on him when he makes a point that should merit a concession.

hey you’re a jew, aren’t you kinda obligated to go to war with him? 🤭

who’s a common example of a nazi? Um, definitely any YouTube commentator 😏 haha!

Kinda wack

(436 upvotes)

https://web.archive.org/web/20220829051037/https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/x0g8q0/say_what_you_want_about_mrgirls_positions/

This post defending Destiny was also removed, likely because it violated TOS:

I'm disappointed in this community: Mr Girl does not know how to argue in good faith

This post is referring to the Destiny v Mr Girl conversation (before Jidion & Aba joined). I am writing this post due to these posts on this sub:

1 (400 upvoted post accusing Destiny of obfuscating during Mr Girls questioning),

2 (350 upvoted post praising Mr Girl for arguing something he cares about)

3 (250 Upvoted post mainly focusing on comments like this praising Mr Girl for being able to "challenge and stake out" points against Destiny)

[The post was titled "MrGirl is the best thing to happen to the stream this year," and was just one sentence: this is an unironic post, and i am not even a mrgirl simp]

You'd think with all of these posts and comments in the posts that Mr Girl did very good in the conversation, asking good thought provoking questions whilst Destiny squirms in bad faith.

Let me remind you what happened in that conversation: (here's a link to the full convo so you can watch it for yourself if you think I'm misrepresenting points)

What Mr Girl did in that conversation:

-Interrupts Steven all the time, doesn't let Steven interrupt him

-Uses 0 charitability when engaging with Steven (literally accuses him of gaslighting instead of thinking "maybe he didn't understand my point")

-LITERALLY being a debate bro (rants for 5 minutes, when Steven tries to respond interrupts him and performatively screams "you don't have an answer do you!")

-Doesn't believe what Steven says (how do you have a conversation when you think your opponent is lying)

-Accusing Destiny of being too scared to respond when he LITERALLY won't let him speak

What Destiny does in that conversation:

-Writes down all of Mr Girls points and so he can responds to them

-Lets him talk for 5 minutes to get all of his points out

-When he misunderstands what Mr Girl says he asks for clarifying questions instead of crucifying him like Mr Girl did.

-Tries to Steelman Mr Girls arguments instead of attacking the least charitable interpretation like Mr did.

-Takes the rhetorical L by letting Mr Girl rant and rant and rant and rant.

⚠️WARNING⚠️ EMOTIONAL RANT BELOW⚠️

The fact that there are 0 posts praising Destiny for his patience and attempt to engage with Mr Girl arguing like an emotional teenager is one thing. BUT THE FACT THAT THERE ARE POSTS PRAISING MR GIRL FOR HIS BAD FAITH ACTIONS IS INSANE.

Half of you fuckers should be banned. I would hate to foster a community that has 0 critical engagement with my stream discussions.

Kill yourselves.

(244 upvotes)

https://web.archive.org/web/20220829155854/https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/x0s0te/mini_effortpost_im_disappointed_in_this_community/

I came back onto his stream to argue again.

This was not normal for me–I almost never invited myself on, as I found it presumptuous and uncomfortable, and I also didn't like being a side character on someone else's show. But I was afraid Fuentes would do something terrible one day and I wouldn't be able to forgive myself if I didn't try to reach Destiny or his audience on this issue.

I was finally able to press Destiny into defining "Nazi." He gave three criteria:

1. "A high level of conspiratorial anti semitism, not just actual observations about Jewish people."

2. The desire for "state sponsored violence against ethnic minorities or other undesirables."

3. Nazis "want to build some form of fascist state."

Does Fuentes meet these criteria?

Destiny: [...] Fuentes' outward positions are not there on, I don't think, on any of those three topics. Maybe a little bit on the third one, but on the first two, that is not his outward positions. [...] And if you ask me, is Nick Fuentes secretly a neo Nazi? He could be. [...]

Me: [...] You don't believe that Fuentes engages in conspiratorial antisemitism?

Destiny: I haven't heard it as part of his stuff recently, but I could be shown clips that would convince me otherwise. Let me give a quick example to two of these things. So he says something like, "I think that Jewish people all tend to vote or push politics in a certain way, where they want to always support Israel, and are kind of like fucking always looking out for themselves and shit, and it fucks the rest of us over a little bit," I don't think that that rises to the level of Jewish conspiracy. But if he says something akin to what Lauren Southern used to say with the great replacement, where he's like, "I think there's a plan where these people are intentionally trying to eradicate white people," then that rises to a level of Jewish conspiracy.

I said I wanted a one word answer, and he asked me to restate the question again.

Me: The question is, does Nick Fuentes engage in antisemitic conspiracies, or traffic in them?

Destiny: Yeah, I'd say no, but it would be based on what I've seen so far. My mind could be changed if somebody sent me a clip on it. But as of what I've seen so far, no.

Destiny gave a more straightforward "no" to the second criteria (wishing for state-sponsored violence against undesirables), and said "yes" to the third, conceding that Fuentes is probably a fascist.

I'd finally gotten what I'd come for–Destiny had taken a position. But it came with a price.

After I left the call, Destiny addressed his audience:

"Listen guys. All of us are gonna go to sleep tonight, but not all of us are going to wake up in the morning. I think we might be a few hundred members lighter tomorrow on the Subreddit. I'm just giving you a warning right now if you haven't deleted your post yet or changed it. If you criticize me, that's fine, but if you're writing some autistic shit like "Destiny's bad faith, weaselly, blah, blah, blah," I'm permabanning you and I'm not unbanning you. mrgirl's not [unintelligible] tonight, just giving you a heads up. There [is] so much unbelievably retarded shit, I would rather just never have you in my community. If that hurts you or bothers you, that's fine, but if you're the kind of person who needs to be able to use like a, "You have to be able to call someone a Nazi or fascist blah blah blah," I really just don't even want you here. There's plenty of other political people you can watch, or you can watch me from a banned thing and don't interact, or you can slowly go off to other communities, that's fine. I super don't want you as part of my community or part of my whatever the fuck I'm doing. I'm just letting you know, just being honest. Love you guys, it's been fun, going to bed."

That night, a Destiny fan of at least one year (and not a fan of mine) wrote what is now the 15th most-upvoted post in the past year:

"Destiny is incorrect. Nick Fuentes does outwardly meet his definition for 'nazi'"

Destiny's personal definition of "nazi" he explained on stream had 3 core elements:

One: High level of conspiratorial antisemitism (ie insidious plots, plots against your native race)

Two: Institution or a desire to institute some sort of outward violence or state sponsored violence against ethnic minorities or other 'undesirables' (ie plans to export or kill 'undesirables')

Three: Desire to build some form a fascist state.

Destiny said that so far as this definition is concerned that Nick Fuentes' positions are not there on any of these 3 elements. He's triple wrong.

One: High level of conspiratorial antisemitism:

A pretty clear picture is painted that Fuentes openly insists that Jewish people are consolidating power through nefarious, dishonest means in various institutions with the intent to do harm to white people. This is false and conspiratorial.

“Math, unlike the Jewish media, does not lie.”

“A bastardised Jewish subversion of the American creed. The Founders never intended for America to be a refugee camp for nonwhite people.”

“And we all know that racial identity of the nation is always more salient than the political or ideological identity…Might be an important question to ask which side do you think resonates with the Jews who came in when my ancestors did?…Does their experience resonate more with the dominant group, the White Man or the aggrieved and oppressed ‘negro’? Might be kind of relevant considering the disproportionate manner in which they contribute to political campaigns and control media and Hollywood, don’t you think? Hey who founded the NAACP anyway?”

“The maths doesn’t seem to add up, I don’t think it’d result in 6 million, probably 200-300 thousand cookies. The red cookie association said something like that.”

“Why is it then that we are forced to accept probably the most transformative policies in the history of our country, perhaps the most transformative policies that are possible, which is the systematic replacement of the people that constitute that country. We can’t talk about it, we can’t use mass media, we can’t run for office, we can’t change policy, so at a certain point what is the expectation?

“If you are a White male zoomer, remember that the people in power hate you and your unborn children and they will try to genocide you in your lifetime.”

“Basically what you’re saying is that to end white genocide, to restore traditional white society, that would bring with it inertia. And the excesses of that would be real xenophobia, real hostility toward perceived or real outsiders. That if we had the restoration of a core American identity centred around ethnicity and race, well, we would tend to regard not-whites as outsiders and there might be backlash against them. To me, that’s almost inevitable and you’re basically right about that.”

“Matt Walsh, shabbos goy race traitor. That’s what it is, folks. I know some people don’t like to use that expression, but it’s totally true—throwing his own people under the bus. He hates white people. Nobody else talks like that about their own people except for white people and it’s gross,” … You’re a race traitor, you work for Jews… For him to disavow white supremacy is very cucked and bluepilled”

EDIT: u/milkshake_desire links more clips on Nick's claims of 'Jewish black magic' and other crazy shit. Check them out in his comment here. u/DthPlagusthewise also provided a clip where Nick says "Are we supposed to pretend like there isn't a problem here with Jewish elites in particular having a problem with America?"

Two: Institution or a desire to institute some sort of outward violence or state sponsored violence against ethnic minorities or other 'undesirables'

Pretty clear picture painted from before that the 'Jews' are the people in power and that we should fight and commit violence against them and other 'undesirables'.

“Why is it then that we are forced to accept probably the most transformative policies in the history of our country, perhaps the most transformative policies that are possible, which is the systematic replacement of the people that constitute that country. We can’t talk about it, we can’t use mass media, we can’t run for office, we can’t change policy, so at a certain point what is the expectation?

“the easiest way for Mexicans to not get shot in Wal-Mart is to not fucking be here.”

“Basically what you’re saying is that to end white genocide, to restore traditional white society, that would bring with it inertia. And the excesses of that would be real xenophobia, real hostility toward perceived or real outsiders. That if we had the restoration of a core American identity centred around ethnicity and race, well, we would tend to regard not-whites as outsiders and there might be backlash against them. To me, that’s almost inevitable and you’re basically right about that.”

“Who runs the media? Globalists. Time to kill the globalists. I don’t want to not watch CNN. I don’t want CNN to go out of business. I don’t want CNN to be more honest. I want people that run CNN to be arrested and deported or hanged because this is deliberate.”

“What can you and I do to a state legislator—besides kill them? We should not do that. I'm not advising that, but I mean, what else can you do, right?"

“Our Founding Fathers would get in the streets, and they would take this country back by force if necessary. And that is what we must be prepared to do."

Three: Desire to build some form a fascist state.

Speaks for itself mostly and even Destiny acknowledged that Nick Fuentes could fit this element.

“I’m a reactionary” “I support autocracy.”

“Fuck the UN, and the internet, and democracy”

“If antifa were marching down the streets and they were waving the banner of Benito Mussolini or Francisco Franco, I’d be joining them, frankly. If antifa was waving the banner of Falangism, if they were waving the banner of Franco, and they were saying ‘Catholic fascism now,’ I would join them. I would become a part of antifa. I would welcome antifa. Yes, take over the country. Storm D.C. Take over the capital. Raise the banner of Mussolini and Franco, and, you know, some notable others, right. Oswald Mosely, that would be a great thing.”

“Bolsonaro. We need something like that in America. Hopefully, he can show Trump how it’s done. What’s cool about him is that he has control of the military…You’ve got 55 percent of the vote and the military. You can do whatever you want. Screw the Congress…Maybe Trump can learn from that a little.”

BuT hE's JuSt JoKiNg you might say? He isn't.

Special thanks to Rose Wrist for making a pretty comprehensive google doc that I'd suggest checking out if you're somehow still on the fence.

The fact of 'Nick Fuentes is a nazi' being this significantly contentious here is a pretty clear warning post that this community has already changed and not for the better. Nazis aren't an enemy anymore, it's people who are 'soy' or 'woke' that are the real problem here apparently? Huh?!

This community used to give a shit about society progressing into a safer, brighter and more inclusive future so much so that it went and campaigned for politicians who were striving to do the same. Now look at it.

EDIT: o7. I'm happy to chat with whoever banned me; I think I've been pretty good faith about everything I've put forward.

EDIT 2: Hi! I've received some good pushback to parts of this post (and some not-so-good) but unfortunately as I am perma'd I can't actually reply to them and I don't want to drown this post in edits. Feel free to message me if you have questions or want to talk about any specific bits!

Edit again: I've had a few messages now about the last comment I made:

This community used to give a shit about society progressing into a safer, brighter and more inclusive future so much so that it went and campaigned for politicians who were striving to do the same. Now look at it.

What I meant by this is that DGG used to positively organize and champion awesome causes and now we're fighting tooth and nail over something that, in my view, is a well documented fact even by the definition that Destiny gave on stream (I didn't have a link before but here is the timestamp of Destiny's definition that I referenced). It wasn't meant to mean that wE'rE bEiNg BrAiNwAsHeD but more that I think it's sad looking at where this community is now vs where it was.

(3.7k upvotes)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/x19uxo/destiny_is_incorrect_nick_fuentes_does_outwardly/

The author was permanently banned. So was the top commenter:

the fact that this post warrants a ban is horrid

edit:banned woohoo, lick my nuts

(940 upvotes)

And the top reply to that comment also caught a ban:

Seriously though, that’s really fucking bad. If posts like this are being banned we need a mod purge pronto. Unless it’s destiny banning them, in which case kick destiny

Edit: I got banned too. Shout out Copestiny

u/mitchfynde right? Idk how this dude thinks he’s some bastion of free speech when he cant go a day without crying tears of pure soy about his fans

(486 upvotes)

Many other commenters also caught bans:

A+ effort post

It's incredibly difficult to create a functional definition of Nazi that doesn't include Nick's actions in it. It seems that Destiny is hesitant to call Nick a Nazi because he wants to continue making content with him.

Also, the new soy and woke hate is definitely getting too far. I appreciate Max saying that he doesn't care if he appears that way because it's important to push back against those who have dangerous views regardless of what side they are on

Edit: o7 feelsbadman

(431 upvotes)

(o7 is meant to resemble a little guy saluting, and is a popular way to express that you've been banned in Destiny's community.)

o7

literally 1984

edit : ministry of information got me. o7 brothers.

(327 upvotes)

unironically destiny (girls name) is so fragile

Edit: Perma Banned.

(164 upvotes)

This is just bizarre from dest man. He’s chosen to die on this hill for some reason

Edit: Didn’t survive the purge. Remember me

(212 upvotes)

Because Nick is fun to hang out with (:

Edit:

So uh how long do permanent bans last?

(83 upvotes)

Good post, it's really nice when somebody makes a point and backs it up with solid and specific evidence. Unfortunately I doubt it will change anything since it seems as though Destiny cares more about not scaring off Nick's audience than being consistent on this issue. He has also mentioned not having that many right wingers to talk to. Personally i think he could probably still talk with Nick without being so uncomfortably friendly (uncomfortable for many of his viewers at least). But I suppose that's his decision to make and ultimately we can only guess at the reasons he chooses to do what he does.

Edit, banned for this (presumably). Seems pretty fragile tbh.

(54 upvotes)

o7 brave soldier.

Destiny's argument was self defeating anyways. He was simultaneously claiming that having conversations with Fuentes allowed him and dgg to see Nick's positions and challenge him on them. But also despite multiple long conversations Destiny can't give a solid answer to whether Nick fits any of the criteria for being a nazi.

If Destiny has no honest idea what Nick thinks of Jews after all this time then clearly the conversations aren't given him as much insight into Nick's positions as he thinks they are

Edit: o7

(40 upvotes)

I was deeply disturbed. All of Destiny's arguments about his political strategy were unraveling. Where before I'd seen him as arrogant and irresponsible, I was beginning to see him as a malignant narcissist lashing out at anyone who threatened his self-image. His behavior was otherwise inexplicable, as this was not a good strategy for expanding his audience, bridging ideological chasms, protecting his livelihood, or any other possible motivation. It was a strategy for short-term ego protection and nothing else.

I wrote my own subreddit post to address the repetitive counterarguments I'd seen from Destiny's most loyal fans.

From the desk of mrgirl: FAQ about my Fuentes arguments

1. What is your position?

In engaging with Fuentes, Steven should provide moral pushback and clarity about his beliefs about who Fuentes is and what he is capable of.

Specifically, he should have a definition of the word Nazi and use it consistently.

2. Why does the word matter?

Nazism still exists in the world today, and it's important to have a word to accurately identify it. If you misuse the word and water it down, you are providing cover for real Nazis by making them difficult to even talk about.

Steven has already used the word publicly in reference to Fuentes, stating that he is (basically) a Nazi, that he isn't a Nazi, and also jokingly calling him a Nazi.

I believe this word is most responsibly used to define who and who isn't actually a Nazi. Steven seems to believe this too--which is why he doesn't normally use the word as an insult, and protests against others doing the same.

I think it is therefore particularly disastrous when he throws it around jokingly while talking to Fuentes. I recognize that he is doing this to both mock leftists and also Fuentes to some degree, but it creates the perception that Steven is on a team with Fuentes because they share a common ideological enemy (the far left).

(I find this alliance unsettling because I think Fuentes is absolutely a Nazi.)

This creates confusion around Fuentes's beliefs and intentions which helps Fuentes grow his audience.

3. Why do you keep talking about "creating confusion?"

I used Trump as an example yesterday, but let's use me instead.

Some of you think I'm a pedophile. Some of you think I'm not. Some of you think it's funny to call me a pedophile jokingly. Some of you think it's funny that I might actually be kind of a pedophile.

Despite the extreme stigma around pedophilia, this blurry perception of my sexuality and intentions has helped me immensely. Some top comments on the "I Can Fantasize About Whatever I Want" music video are:

"I’m 200% sure I’m on a list now."

"Youre the type of creator im scared to show my friends yet im super hyped for. Keep doing you and I will keep watching in the most normal, dubious, socially acceptable yet morbidly curious way"

"Eminem + EDP445"

This last one is important. Notice that EDP445 doesn't have much of a career now. Because he's ACTUALLY a predator.

Notice that Eminem doesn't have the same excitement around his work he once did: because we know that he is a mostly law-abiding nice middle-aged man.

You should also know that my audience contains a disproportionately large percentage of pedophiles who are grateful to me for humanizing them, despite me consistently making it clear that pedophiles are mentally ill people who must seek treatment so that they never abuse children.

And despite my clarity, the lingering perception of "maybe I'm a pedophile, tee hee" does seem to benefit my career.

Do you see the parallel here? There are many people who would not follow an out-and-out Nazi, but who would follow a... maybe Nazi.

In both cases, creators who engage with both me and Fuentes have a moral imperative to decide for themselves what kind of people we are.

If you think I intend to grow my audience and then use that power to sexually abuse children (or encourage others to abuse children), and you still have chicken and waffles with me, you are complicit in that abuse.

4. Didn't Steven talk to you when everyone thought you were a pedophile?

Yes, but I don't think Steven has ever thought I was a predator or even a pedophile. There was actually a poignant moment in one of our early conversations where I promised him that I would never sexually abuse a child, and it seemed to mean something to him.

However, if he did believe that giving me a platform would lead to me using my power to sexually abuse children, then he shouldn't have befriended me publicly.

The question implies that I think anything that benefits me is morally good, but I don't think that (and neither should you).

If Steven thinks Fuentes is going to harm people with whatever power he obtains, he shouldn't sanitize him by being buddy buddy with him on stream.

5. But Steven's goal is to convert Fuentes fans and he is doing that.

Yes, I know. That is irrelevant to my criticisms here.

6. Steven is good at providing pushback to Fuentes and making him look stupid.

On paper, yeah, that's absolutely true.

However, I want you to take a look at the range of opinions about Fuentes in the community.

There are many people who believe Fuentes is a dangerous Nazi who tried to destabilize the American government on January 6th. I think this is the truth.

Yet, what negative perceptions do we see floating around after the chicken and waffles stream?

Fuentes is an incel. Asexual. Terminally online. Little boy. Awkward little brother. [Destiny's son[ in 10 years. Mean to Melina. Jealous of Steven. Paranoid about being harmed by strangers. Afraid to eat. Confused about his beliefs. Questioning his beliefs.

He lost, though, right?

When Fuentes loses an argument with Steven, he is still sanitized.

In fact, and this is a really wild mrgirl claim I'm about to make: it's actually better for Fuentes when he loses.

7. Sigh, okay, what the fuck are you talking about now?

Steven soundly beats Fuentes in every engagement... intellectually.

But Fuentes's faults are not intellectual:

He is a psychopath who wants to take over the country and kill people.

The gravity of that is washed away in a friendly debate over chicken and waffles.

So, when you are smugly laughing at Fuentes for coming across like Steven's awkward little brother--he's actually made a gigantic leap from "treasonous psychopath" to "dorky young incel."

8. What if he really is just joking?

Well, he has stated that he will hide his anti-Semitic (Nazi) ideology in jokes.

Last month in a Twitter space he said that DGG are autistic people who've embraced being gay rather than embracing Hitler.

And he tried to overthrow the government.

Fuentes is a sophisticated propagandist and political operator. You may scoff at this idea because he is 24.

He's not a normal person. He is a fanatic with little interest in normal life. At this age he has already spent more time obsessing over religion and politics than normal people do in their lifetimes.

It is naïve to think of his social incompetence (or appearance thereof) as an indicator of his political effectiveness.

9. Why are you soy about this?

I believe that trying to be cool and emotionless is costing streamers the ability to take moral stances.

This is okay for Minecraft streamers, but when hundreds of thousands of people look to you for political guidance, it makes you unable to provide pushback against heinous intentions.

I don't want political streamers to be afraid to say: "Why would I help you with your career? You want to become president and take away women's right to vote, and I think that's wrong."

10. So basically you're jealous of Steven's friendship with Nick?

I am not saying Steven shouldn't be friends with Fuentes or that he shouldn't talk to him.

I have the above criticisms of how he talks to him and how their relationship is portrayed in Steven's streams.

11. How's that bridge doing?

Pretty good, dipshit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/x1fq7f/from_the_desk_of_mrgirl_faq_about_my_fuentes/

The bridge comment was my assurance to the community and to myself that my personal relationship with Destiny would be unaffected by his professional treatment of me. The position was of course untenable, and I failed to protect myself.

On August 31, Rose Wrist debated Destiny about his Fuentes position, and he was far less aggressive than I was.

There was a moment that stuck out to me when Rose asked Destiny to define "conspiratorial antisemitism."

Rose Wrist: Okay, what do we mean? Is it just like, Jews control the world? Or is it like Jews and [the] global elite control the world? I would say that both of those probably qualify as antisemitic statements. Would you disagree?

Destiny: They probably would. I would imagine, if you think Jews control the world, yeah. Or at the very–well, assuming it's not true, right? Yeah, of course, that's an antisemitic statement, generally, yeah.

On September 2, I was banned from YouTube.

They banned my main channel first, and then my streaming channel a couple weeks later.

I'd been mass reported by Nick Fuentes's followers. Fuentes had complained about my talks with Destiny and then one of his adherents, Big Tech, told his own viewers to flag my channel. (Yes, the same Big Tech whom Lav told about her sexual encounter with Destiny.)

YouTube said I'd violated the sex and nudity rule so severely that it warranted immediate channel deletion. The video in question was called "Why It's Hard for Women to Say No," an anti-rape video that juxtaposed sexually violent movie scenes with mundane descriptions of women being pressured into sex, and my thoughts on how women are socialized to not hold boundaries.

YouTube originally removed the video in February 2020, giving my channel a strike at the time. I appealed the decision and won–the video was reinstated and age-restricted instead of being removed. YouTube told me via email, "Content that contains nudity or graphic footage is allowed on YouTube if it’s posted with sufficient educational, documentary, artistic, or scientific context."

If I hadn't appealed the video's removal in 2020, I suppose I'd still have my YouTube channel.

I appealed again and was rejected, tweeted at YouTube (Fuentes sent his followers to mob my tweet with antisemitic replies), reached out to the ACLU and the ADL, and attempted to hire multiple lawyers to take YouTube to court, all to no avail. I've been banned for six months now.

I was and still am heartbroken. My YouTube channel had been my main artistic project for five years, beginning in 2017, and I'd worked hard to make it challenging and special. It was my baby.

But if the cost of keeping my baby is turning a blind eye to Destiny dumping Nazi fertilizer all over his community, then the baby was already dead.

I was being slowly deplatformed. Maybe I still am–I've been banned and unbanned from Twitter three times since then, as Destiny's fans are mass-flagging my account. In September I paid Destiny's web developer to build me my own streaming site (basically a clone of Destiny's), but my only remaining link to a general streaming audience was through Destiny.

Destiny wore my merch to show solidarity and said it was really sad to see my art destroyed, but I had this sinking feeling that he'd always wanted me to be his sickly exotic pet. He made a show of cutting ties with Fuentes over my banning, and I was touched by the gesture at the time. But it's more likely that Destiny distanced himself from Fuentes because I'd ruined the fun for his audience and he wanted to cut his losses.

Destiny and his mods began banning people from r/Destiny just for being my fans. On the heels of the YouTube ban, this was hellish for me. I'm easily misunderstood, and having people in the audience to participate on both sides of the provocative discussions I like to start is crucial for me. Not to make money, but to feel like I'm accomplishing anything.

I also found it disturbing that Destiny's working definition of a "mrgirl fan" included anyone who thought he shouldn't rub shoulders with Nazis on stream.

On October 14 I wrote a post titled "A Declaration of War," and, still declaring a personal love for Destiny, I demanded that rules be put in place to protect free and open discussion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/y3tubl/a_declaration_of_war/

On October 19th, No Jumper, a podcast with 4.58 million YouTube subscribers, posted a video titled "Nick Fuentes, Sneako, Adam22, AD & Flakko Race Debate." The general consensus among both Destiny's and No Jumper's audiences was that the podcast hosts were not equipped to counter Fuentes's racist rhetoric, and that they may have made a mistake by inviting him on.

During the episode, Adam22 said to Sneako: "I do have to admit, the rabbit hole is real, because if it wasn't for you and Destiny being cordial enough to sit down with Nick, then I would not have thought of him as being, you know, somebody who is safe to platform, which obviously you guys can tell that that's part of my concern here. I've got a lot of people reaching out saying that I'm fucking crazy for even having Nick on the show, but at the end of the day I think we should be able to have conversations with people we disagree [with]. Although I am currently wondering if this podcast is going to get taken down for Holocaust denial."

Furious, I clipped this quote, and uploaded it to Destiny's subreddit with the title, "I was right. Fuentes was sanitized by Steven, and the DGG vs Groyper conversion zero sum game idea was wrong and irrelevant."

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/y8ipzs/i_was_right_fuentes_was_sanitized_by_steven_and/

I was banned the next day.

On October 28, I confronted Destiny on stream. After a few more hours of gaslighting (he blamed his mods for the ban) he eventually admitted he was afraid his audience would turn against him if he didn't shut down certain narratives.

I said that he'd created an abusive system and that I couldn't be part of it unless he pledged to allow orbiters to defend ourselves on the subreddit. He said no.

I told him that I thought he was making a decision that was bad for him, the people around him, and also irresponsible given that he wants to platform Nazis. He said, "I'd rather just platform the Nazis uncontested, then. That would be my choice rather than saying I have to suffer people indefinitely using my subreddit as a platform to attack me from."

Other orbiters, drooling over the vacancy I'd be leaving in the top spot, joined the call and made a display of just how much they agreed with Destiny's position that they should silently endure routine humiliation so he can make money.

I called them white blood cells, told Destiny I loved him, and left the community.

On March 5, 2023, Adin Ross asked Destiny about Fuentes on stream.

Adin: Do you like Nick Fuentes?

Destiny: Personally or politically?

Adin: Both.

Destiny: I think he's a funny guy, but he's like basically a fucking Nazi now after Kanye so not the biggest fan.

Adin: But do you like Kanye?

Destiny: Yeah, I would say same as Nick, he was cool before the Nazi stuff.

The same day, someone posted a link to an antisemitic speech given by Fuentes, and titled the post "Fuentes Nazi rally last night"

Dude is completely mask off now. Talking about how cool Hitler is and that we need to get rid of the Jews.

(411 upvotes)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/11jdd38/fuentes_nazi_rally_last_night/

The top comment:

nobody say it

edit: banned

(248 upvotes)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/11jdd38/comment/jb22icr/

I'm sure some of you are horrified by this story. Destiny's engagement with Fuentes was vile, he wields his power like a child, and he's unthinkably self-interested.

But I do want to make a broader point:

If the YouTube algorithm were a person, it would be Destiny.

The algorithm follows the same lizard brain instincts. It has no qualms about manipulating you, hurting you, scaring you, or provoking you to rage. It does not care who or what it platforms as long as you keep watching.

I just now checked if YouTube has monetized the No Jumper video featuring Fuentes and Sneako–yup. I got a Dolce & Gabbana ad.

Fuentes: [Kanye West] started talking about Jews, then he lost his bank account, then he got kicked out of stadiums, then he got locked out of Instagram, then he got locked out of Twitter–it's like, yeah this kind of says where the parameters are. What's the line you can't cross? Everybody knows it's Jews.

Sneako: It's not comparable to blacks and Asians. Jews have the ultimate power, and that's not even anything hateful. I don't want people to label me as antisemitic. I'm already canceled, but that's just true–they have ultimate control and power, and they will abuse it if they need to protect their agenda.

Adam22: Yeah, I mean there's no use arguing that one since we just saw it happen in front of our eyes with the Kanye bank situation. It's like, I mean, I don't know if he's going to end up regretting having said that shit or what.

(To avoid spreading misinformation myself: J.P. Morgan severed its relationship with Yeezy on September 20, four days after Ye criticized its leadership and announced that he'd be moving his $140 million "to Bank of America, probably" on CNBC. This was two weeks before his infamous "deafcon 3" tweet, though the J.P. Morgan letter was not made public until Candace Owens tweeted it out on October 12.)

Link | Archive

Link | Archive

(Look how much effort it takes to knock down a lie it took Fuentes only two seconds to tell.)

From later in the No Jumper video:

Fuentes: The urge for censorship is really coming from the Jewish left, and it's not to say that there aren't white–there obviously are white liberals that are hopped up on that too–and I'd agree with you, yeah, I mean they're imperialists, they're tyrants, you know, they're trying to impose their way of life. But I think a lot of it does–

Adam22: So we're supposed to just accept that the Jews are tyrants who want to change our way of life?

Fuentes: They are, I mean, they are.

And when YouTube gets caught promoting Nazism, vaccine misinformation, or conspiracy theories, they'll ban the creator of the video or attach a little hand-wringing notice above the description box.

It's gaslighting. YouTube is blasting Nazi talking points into your 13-year-old child's brain while assuring you that they're working around the clock to make YouTube safe for kids.

It's not safe for anyone. How can it be? The algorithm is never held accountable. It's never even seen. I poked it with one finger and my career was instantly ground to pieces.

I thought a friend of mine was joking when he said this, but after laying it all out, I know it's the truth:

I was banned from YouTube because I'm a Jew.